Ivison Guitars '59 DC Model - Build Thread

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  • Blimey Neil these are looking fantastic! 
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  • DanielsguitarsDanielsguitars Frets: 3261
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    You'd love my radius jig neil, as you've found out, it's hard work making more than one and precisely the reason why I've got one and it takes a couple of minutes, it's lovely 
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
    (formerly customkits)
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  • valevale Frets: 1052
    edited June 2018
    this is a very cool & very simple jig someone created to bulk build necks with a perfect compound radius. just bolt your fretboard to it & rock back & forth over a belt sander.

    obviously what goes for compound goes for regular. if i was going to build a neck (still a long way from having the confidence) this technique is definitely what i would use. it makes it seem almost idiot proof, which is what i generally seek in advice.

    http://pueyoguitar.free.fr/outils/radiuseur2.jpg

    have to say (again) this is a wonderful thread. definitely appreciate the time & trouble you are taking to document the process so carefully.
    & it also speaks volumes on the state of the state of your art. admirable.
    hofner hussie & hayman harpie. what she said...
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
    edited June 2018 tFB Trader
    Nice one @WezV i’ll try that on the next one!

    @customkits PM me your plans then!

    @vale Thanks for the link, will check that out. 

    @joeyowen & @designerseye88 Cheers chaps :)
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    Fantastic work you're doing, I'm thoroughly enjoying following this build.
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  • Very nice.

    Regarding the old celluloid dots, I'd always been led to believe that celluloid degrades badly with age, but those look fine.  Most of the stories I've heard are to do with film stock though, so perhaps it's a different kind of celluloid, or it's just worse when it's thin.  Is it different stuff from celluloid film?
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
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    Very nice.

    Regarding the old celluloid dots, I'd always been led to believe that celluloid degrades badly with age, but those look fine.  Most of the stories I've heard are to do with film stock though, so perhaps it's a different kind of celluloid, or it's just worse when it's thin.  Is it different stuff from celluloid film?
    I would imagine Celluloid is Celluloid to be honest and the dots are just a much thicker version of than but you are right in that they can degrade. What happened/s occasionally on some 50's Juniors and Specials is that over time, we're talking 50/60 years of course, the Celluloid can shrink slightly with UV exposure and a dot can fall out.

    I had this happen recently on my 1957 Special:



    Luckily, I saw it happen and was able to glue it back in:



    I always superglue all the dots into the fretboard so they stay firmly in place.
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • miserneil said:

    I would imagine Celluloid is Celluloid to be honest and the dots are just a much thicker version of than but you are right in that they can degrade. What happened/s occasionally on some 50's Juniors and Specials is that over time, we're talking 50/60 years of course, the Celluloid can shrink slightly with UV exposure and a dot can fall out.
    Not too bad then - you hear stories of old film falling apart or even spontaneously combusting, but shrinking and falling out isn't too scary.

    Thinking about it, ping pong balls are celluloid I think, and I've not heard of those burning anybody's house down :)
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    Just realised @miserneil I should be seeing your band over the August bank holiday weekend in sunny Upton. If you want to drop this Jr off with me whilst I’m there that’d be fine, I’m assuming the $150 you quoted in the OP would be okay,   but you’ll need to get on with the build smile 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
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    Just realised @miserneil I should be seeing your band over the August bank holiday weekend in sunny Upton. If you want to drop this Jr off with me whilst I’m there that’d be fine, I’m assuming the $150 you quoted in the OP would be okay,   but you’ll need to get on with the build smile 
    Eric,

    Absolutely no problem at all, if we take $150 dollars they were in 1959 and add current inflation, that's $4067.67 today but as i'm a generous sort, i'll do you 50% discount if you're paying cash on the day..... ;)

    If you do get to see us at Upton (Sunday, 14:30, High Street Main Stage) please do come and say hello, be great to put a face to the user ID :)
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    miserneil said:
    Just realised @miserneil I should be seeing your band over the August bank holiday weekend in sunny Upton. If you want to drop this Jr off with me whilst I’m there that’d be fine, I’m assuming the $150 you quoted in the OP would be okay,   but you’ll need to get on with the build smile 
    Eric,

    Absolutely no problem at all, if we take $150 dollars they were in 1959 and add current inflation, that's $4067.67 today but as i'm a generous sort, i'll do you 50% discount if you're paying cash on the day..... ;)

    If you do get to see us at Upton (Sunday, 14:30, High Street Main Stage) please do come and say hello, be great to put a face to the user ID :)
    Hopefully I can do that. I might need to rethink the maths on that Jr though... :anguished: 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • miserneil said:

    If you do get to see us at Upton
    Forgive the OT post, but is that Upton upon Severn?  I used to have a mate who lived there - used to snigger at the amusingly-named road as I drove past every time I visited...
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
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    miserneil said:

    If you do get to see us at Upton
    Forgive the OT post, but is that Upton upon Severn?  I used to have a mate who lived there - used to snigger at the amusingly-named road as I drove past every time I visited...
    Tis indeed....I can only imagine you are referring to Minge Lane?? Apparently that sign needs replacing every 3 months! :)
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    miserneil said:
    miserneil said:

    If you do get to see us at Upton
    Forgive the OT post, but is that Upton upon Severn?  I used to have a mate who lived there - used to snigger at the amusingly-named road as I drove past every time I visited...
    Tis indeed....I can only imagine you are referring to Minge Lane?? Apparently that sign needs replacing every 3 months! :)
    I shall look out for it during the Sunshine festival ( I’m so rocknroll). 
    Sorry, everyone go back to the guitar build now. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
    edited June 2019 tFB Trader
    @EricTheWeary We're playing there too! On the Saturday, Main Stage, before Quo!

    Anyway on to the neck carving. This was the scariest part of my first build, the actual getting started, but once you start to see something that resembles a guitar neck it's a great feeling so it's become my favourite part of the process now.

    I start by bringing the neck blank close to the final depth i'm after on the belt sander. The '59' profile I took my measurements from and base this model on measured 23.5mm at the 1st fret and 24.6mm at the 12th.

    Vintage Gibson necks were all carved on a belt sander. I have a small belt/spindle sander, it was about £170 and has earned its money 10 times over, a VERY handy little piece of kit.

    These pics are just to show how Gibson got the 'flare' on the headstock ears:





    I did carve one neck on the belt and it worked great, almost too well and, as I have some 120 grit paper on it, took the neck down to a 60's profile before I knew what was happening, so these days I like to use hand tools and take my time....I also find it enjoyable!

    So I start by roughly marking out the centre and side facets on the neck:



    At this point I also mark out the heel with a perspex template I made from the original 1959 Junior I had:



    And then clamp it against the bench and start to carve the side facets:



    Both sides done:

    ...and it continues in this fashion, bringing the lines in toward the centre line until I have something resembling round neck profile. I then take some rough sand paper and clean up the carve '
    shoeshine fashion'.

    Next, I take a cabinet scraper and/or Stanley blade (a SUPERB little scraper!) and refine the shoulders to match the '59 neck templates I made from the original guitar (1st pic is of this in progress):



    After much scraping and sanding and checking with the templates, we get very close to the original '59 neck shape:



    I then tidy up the heel...I find this the most awkward part for some reason..



    Next, I like to fret the neck, slots are cleaned, wire radiused, frets hammered in and ends nipped off flush:



    So were are left with a neck and a body, ready to become one!



    I re-establish a centre line on the body and start to par down the neck tenon to fit the mortice. On the DC the neck joins the body and the very end of the fretboard, on the SC it joins at the 16th fret. I like to take my time here, unlike Gibson did, and get a nice snug fit. On the originals, the tenon was a rather sloppy fit and the corners were cut off to aid a quick fit, as can be seen here:



    I'm tempted to try this on my next DC build for "historic accuracy" and to see if it has any bearing on the tone....opinions most welcome!

    I also get my neck angle here, as mentioned before, the general consensus is that there was a 2 degree neck angle on the heel. I use 3 degrees to fully clear the P90 and give plenty of adjustment on the bridge. Once i'm happy with the fit, I mask the body to protect it from squeeze out:



    Glue the pocket...



    Fit the neck and clamp, where it will stay for 24 hours:



    The following day I remove the clamps, check all is ok and move on to the next stage which is to par down the neck heel. I think this is particular to Double Cut guitars because, by their design, when the neck is glued in, you are left with a protruding amount of heel that needs to be parred down with a router:



    Now, it's often said that the round mark on the tenon of a DC Junior is from the clamp used to clamp the neck while gluing. It's not. It's a 'bite' mark from an overhead router.

    The above picture of the '59 heel shows this perfectly. You can also see how quickly this was done as the router has cut into the sides of the body all the way around.

    So the heel gets parred down:



    Then a little tickle with some sandpaper and we arrive here:



    More Soon!
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    edited June 2018
    Yeh, just the Sunshine festival, not the blues one for us ( MrsTheWeary and me). 

    Enjoying watching this take shape,I tend to skip the making sections but as I’ve commented on this one I thought I should look at it properly! 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • DanielsguitarsDanielsguitars Frets: 3261
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    I'm tempted to do that gap to Neil but not sure i can yet,  doesn't look right to me and you lose the back wall gluing surface

    It's possible one of the reasons the neck broke out fairly easy because that area wasn't glued, just a thought 
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
    (formerly customkits)
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  • IvisonGuitarsIvisonGuitars Frets: 6838
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    I'm tempted to do that gap to Neil but not sure i can yet,  doesn't look right to me and you lose the back wall gluing surface

    It's possible one of the reasons the neck broke out fairly easy because that area wasn't glued, just a thought 
    I'm not sure the neck did break out on Juniors as a rule Darren, they certainly broke off the early (59) Specials as the tenon was compromised by the neck P90 route as you know, but i've not heard of the same happening on the DC junior. Heel cracks perhaps but never the tenon breaking out.

    Depending on the way they did it, there is still enough gluing surface on the butt of the heel against the 'back wall' of the mortise as the bottom of the tenon needs to be chamfered to fit anyway and this touches the back of the mortice.
    http://www.ivisonguitars.com
    (formerly miserneil)
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  • DanielsguitarsDanielsguitars Frets: 3261
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    miserneil said:
    I'm tempted to do that gap to Neil but not sure i can yet,  doesn't look right to me and you lose the back wall gluing surface

    It's possible one of the reasons the neck broke out fairly easy because that area wasn't glued, just a thought 
    I'm not sure the neck did break out on Juniors as a rule Darren, they certainly broke off the early (59) Specials as the tenon was compromised by the neck P90 route as you know, but i've not heard of the same happening on the DC junior. Heel cracks perhaps but never the tenon breaking out.

    Depending on the way they did it, there is still enough gluing surface on the butt of the heel against the 'back wall' of the mortise as the bottom of the tenon needs to be chamfered to fit anyway and this touches the back of the mortice.
    Sorry yes i meant specials as it's the same joint i just say junior out of habit, I'd still rather have the whole lot glued to the back wall

    I'm cooking up a different dc with 59 neck pickup placement, I'm going for a strat neck pickup though, I'll see how my joint works out
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
    (formerly customkits)
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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283

    Interesting observation on the special neck joint - I compared my 62 Special to a 61 at the recent jam.

    My 62 is an anomaly - there's a chap in America who has found 6-7 in existence (meaning made after they were meant to have been stopped), the theory is they are warrant claims by Gibson - this is borne out by mine having 59 dates on all the hardware (like they just swapped it in the event of a neck break).

    Anyway the point of this post - the 61 (last of the Specials) had the front pickup pulled back to where you would expect it once they realised the neck joint wasn't great. Mine has it even further back - basically closer to where the middle pickup on the strat would be - kind of emphasising 'there's no way we'll touch that tenon on a warranty claim'

    Changes the 'both pickups on' quite considerably

    Sorry for the off-topic!

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