A question to teachers..

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LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 2243
I've been playing for many years, self taught, mainly a rhythm player but have also do a bit of lead etc. 

I decided to get some lessons a while ago because i was aware that a lot of my technique was sloppy and in an effort to get back into regular practice (effectively a 2 year child related break), as well as improve my improvisation (my weakest bit) and get some theory/scales etc. i.e.. the boring bits :)
The teachers is a really nice chap, has been successful teaching for a long time, and really knows his stuff.

I've had three lessons so far, and I've come out of the last one quite un-enthused. So i've wondering if it's me just being a dick about the "boring" bits or maybe teaching style just not for me, so i'd just like your take on things..

Lessons are blues based even though i'm mainly a rock guitarist but always had a soft spot for blues, i figured that blues would be a good starting point and i would be able to apply to most aspects of my playing. As i said, it's technique, theory and direction i'm after...


First lesson, introductions, seeing where we are, 12 bar in G, Blues scale in Gm, arpeggios in G/C/D..  that was good, got straight in with theory, scales and everything i've avoided in life.

2nd lesson, carrying on here, shapes on the neck, finding roots, not much me playing, mainly him showing concepts. Given a backing track to play over.

3rd lesson, fixed my vibrato, Me playing for a minute over track, then him playing for a while. Lets Jam! 2 minutes of me playing one note while he plays over it. Let in on a secret that most teachers don't teach..
Music swings, when bands play scales they don't do it as robots playing the scale to a metronome, its got feels.. 

To be fair, of bits of my technique have been improved. I think i came into it thinking it would be something different, i.e, Lets go through these exercises, play this, you're playing this bit wrong, do it like this, now try it again.

Am i being a dick and doing my usual trick of wanting to go faster than i'm capable of? I'm planning on keeping going at least for now, as some of his students are fantastic so he must be doing something right.. am i overthinking this and should just shut up and learn the damn shapes?

Bleaurgh. 
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Comments

  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    1. Program his shapes into your muscle memory.
    2. Listen carefully as you do it not only for bum notes (don't let yourself program those in) but also asking if you like the tone of what you're playing.
    3. Your short term memory is like a tube that can hold 9 marbles - push in a tenth and the first one in pops out at the other end.
    4. Programming shapes in takes a minimum of one month.
    5. Don't try to go too quick.
    6. Don't be surprised if at some stage you plateau for a while seeing no apparent progress. STick with it and one day you'll notice you've gone another step upwards.
    7. Enjoy the journey.

    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6597
    It's always possible to retrain neural pathways, but we do get rusty and often the bits of the mind that we don't like discourage the bits that we do to stick with what we know rather than make changes. 

    "Old dog, new tricks" is the phrase that springs to mind but it's always possible. Quite often if you can practise in your mind, imagining what you're going to do, which notes you're going to play and hearing them in your mind's ear, that's a good way forwards. May sound a little wanky but many of the greatest performers, martial arts experts, engineers, drivers etc use inner practise to learn faster. 




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  • DulcetJonesDulcetJones Frets: 515
    What @Phil_aka_Pip says.    I would add one thing, if the teacher says to use a metronome, and walks you through how to practice with one, do it.      Even if he/she hasn't I would  download a free one,  I've sorted out many a problem for players in your place along the guitar journey with one.

    “Theory is something that is written down after the music has been made so we can explain it to others”– Levi Clay


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  • LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 2243
    edited July 2018
    Thanks for replies, tbh, it's not content that's the problem, i think its more that i'm sat there for an hour watching someone else play guitar (Not really exaggerating here..).
    I then go home and practice what I've been told, fine, but then barely playing during the lesson means that i don't know that what I've been practising is correct?
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  • DulcetJonesDulcetJones Frets: 515
    I've got about 15 years experience teaching and came to the conclusion a few years in that one hour is too long for a lesson.  A half hour works much better and I avoid playing during lessons unless it's needed to demonstrate a technique or to show fingering tips etc....,  I'm not sure how you would approach a situation like yours other than changing teachers.

    “Theory is something that is written down after the music has been made so we can explain it to others”– Levi Clay


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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    What @Phil_aka_Pip says.    I would add one thing, if the teacher says to use a metronome, and walks you through how to practice with one, do it.      Even if he/she hasn't I would  download a free one,  I've sorted out many a problem for players in your place along the guitar journey with one.
    Quite right Sir. That was a fairly off-the-cuff post, and if I'd thought just a little more I'd have mentioned the metronome. Go for it.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526
    A bit like being parked up on a driving lesson. Maybe ask the tutor to put his guitar down while you pick yours up for a bit. See what he thinks about that . if all your doing is watching then i would recommend lick library dvds.



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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    LuttiS said:
    Thanks for replies, tbh, it's not content that's the problem, i think its more that i'm sat there for an hour watching someone else play guitar (Not really exaggerating here..).
    I then go home and practice what I've been told, fine, but then barely playing during the lesson means that i don't know that what I've been practising is correct?
    Hmmmm .... much as I say I can't teach without a guitar in my hand, I used it only to point to with a finger, or to demonstrate how something is done. I think that a teacher needs to see and hear the student doing what he's trying to get them to do BEFORE they go away and practice for a week, to save them from practicing the wrong thing.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • TheMarlinTheMarlin Frets: 7744
    My first guitar teaching was excellent. Prepared, focused, skilled, meticulous, and resourced.  I've tried other teachers over the years, but they don't cut it.  Most just seem to be winging it, a lot is scribbled on the back of a fag packet, I've often felt that they were not skilled enough to be teaching, and zero knowledge retention from session to session.

    I'm sure this is not representative of teachers today, just the ones I've come across in the last 20 years.  I progressed more with the first teacher than I have with the others combined.

    Teaching isn't just about burning in the patterns and shapes, it also about the personal connection you have with the teacher, and how they push you forward.  A mutual respect.

    If it's not working for you, try a different teacher.

    I keep looking for one to match the first, still looking.

    Marlin



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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I've just finished a lesson with someone who's been playing a while but wants to learn more theory and better technique. 
    I tend to show something in context by playing it but then it's back to the student playing constantly with me guiding them through verbally. If they make a mistake I stop them and make them start again. I do constantly have the guitar on my lap but mainly for practical examples. 
    Rather than backing tracks I tend to play something under the student because then I can switch keys instantly and tempos. 

    When it comes to theory you can waste a lot of money having a teacher teach it ........ I tend to explain the theory in skeleton outline but the application to other keys and positions on the fretboard should be done as homework unless you like wasting money. 
    Learning basic keys, modes and the fretboard is probably easier than learning something like Excel in all honestly and it's something you can practice without a guitar in your hand. 
    The measure of any teacher is whether they can move a student along and improve them. If you don't notice quite an improvement after 6 lessons or so then maybe his style is not for you. Certainly my style of teaching doesn't work for everyone as I'm still learning to teach, it's a real art form !
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Been in the teaching game for 10 years and I keep all my lessons practical and the talking to a minimum. Obviously I will have to explain theory and techniques but won't show off or shred to intimidate the learner. I only use my guitar to demonstrate and play along with them so I know they're doing it right and they can see how its meant to sound.

    Also you've only had 3 lessons, so its not a fair assessment on progress, you need to give it at least 6 months to a year to really see any progress (depending how often you're doing the lessons). If its a good tutor just be patient and trust them to do their job. What pisses me off is some learners don't trust me and go off doing their own thing instead of what I advise them to do, in turn this leads to them going round in circles and not getting the basics right (rhythm reading, knowledge of chords and the notes, etc). Eventually they quit as they're overwhelmed on what they've gotta learn and are no further than where they were before.

    Learning the guitar is a bastard and is a marathon, not a sprint. Its the same as going to the gym. Can you really expect to gain muscle after just 3 sessions? You need to be going 2-3 times a week for 8-12 weeks to actually see any progress.

    Keep working hard and listen to the tutor, if he knows his shit then follow his advice. It'll pay off in the long run. Part of my feat is taking a lot of learners who have already started learning and not progressed as much as they would have liked. They know a handful of chords, 2 strumming patterns (1 is always the swing bluesy one) and maybe 1 position of the minor pentatonic. They can play some tunes but not in time and it doesn't sound very good. Rhythm reading knowledge is poor and they're never sure how long chords are meant to last (1 bar, half a bar, 2 bars, etc). 

    Fast forward a few months - 1 year and they're a bit more competent with their playing as I've helped iron out bad habits/technique and get the basics right. All these foundations are vital to progress to more advanced playing.
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  • LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 2243
    @Danny1969 ... i dunno.. Excel makes a logical argument :)  Maybe its just getting used to teaching style, i'm practically minded so theory has always been a but of a mystery to me.. but to be fair, he has caught some of my sloppy technique and corrected it so there is progress.

    Thanks @Lestratcaster - You're right and i appreciate that it's only been three lessons, and i do plan on sticking with it at least for a while. It's just the nagging at the back of my head wondering if this is the best way of learning and am i really getting value for money. Maybe he is still assessing where i am, (i don't even know tbh) as i have been playing for a long time and i think i'm a competent guitarist and my rhythm is generally very good. At the moment lessons are every 2 weeks as i just can't commit to more due to life getting in the way, so i suppose he might be trying to get as much into my head in the lesson so i can break it down with playing at home. 

    Guess we will see :)
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    I never do fortnightly lessons, the gap is just way too long between lessons and actually encourages them to practice less, contrary to what they may think. The second "no-lesson" week is their chances to be lazy and not do anything, by the time of the next lesson they've forgotten everything/haven't practiced at all. At least with weekly you get that hour with me where I can see what you're doing.

    All learners that took fortnightly lessons have quit as well, unsurprisingly so I don't do it anymore.

    Any time I take on a new learner it takes me a few weeks/months to figure them out as well. I always have this bet in my head as to when they'll quit, then if they've surpassed 6 months to a year I tell them I thought they'd quit within 3 months! 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10646
    Sometimes my guitar teacher doesn’t play a single note for like half an hour at a time. We discuss things and I work things out and play them, and only when I’m stuck will he show me a way out. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    viz said:
    Sometimes my guitar teacher doesn’t play a single note for like half an hour at a time. We discuss things and I work things out and play them, and only when I’m stuck will he show me a way out. 
    Usually I demonstrate, then they do it, then we do it together.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10646
    viz said:
    Sometimes my guitar teacher doesn’t play a single note for like half an hour at a time. We discuss things and I work things out and play them, and only when I’m stuck will he show me a way out. 
    Usually I demonstrate, then they do it, then we do it together.
    Sounds good. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • JackGrantJackGrant Frets: 11
    Hmmm - the relationship with a teacher is really important. Good teachers listen and respond a lot and tend to have a whole raft of ways of helping learners to get what they want. He might not be the right teacher for you, but I’d encourage you to chat to him about it. Good teachers should be leaving you excited. 
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  • His teaching style may not fit with your learning style, e.g. the students who are succeeding may have a visual learning style and so are fine watching him then absorbing what he does. If you are a kinaesthetic learner (touch/practical based) then it won't be working for you. A good teacher will recognise this and adapt his teaching style to your learning style but if this doesn't happen you may not get the results you want. 
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  • LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 2243
    viz said:
    Sometimes my guitar teacher doesn’t play a single note for like half an hour at a time. We discuss things and I work things out and play them, and only when I’m stuck will he show me a way out. 
    Usually I demonstrate, then they do it, then we do it together.
    That's kind of what i expected, but having never had lessons it did leave me wondering...
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    LuttiS said:
    viz said:
    Sometimes my guitar teacher doesn’t play a single note for like half an hour at a time. We discuss things and I work things out and play them, and only when I’m stuck will he show me a way out. 
    Usually I demonstrate, then they do it, then we do it together.
    That's kind of what i expected, but having never had lessons it did leave me wondering...
    Not everyone reacts well as mentioned above. Numerous times when I've been demonstrating they try to play along without listening first, and 10/10 the rhythm is wrong anyway so they should listen and get the pattern right first. But then when they try to do it whilst I'm still talking their head goes down to look at the guitar and they miss what I'm doing, and if we are using a backing track they miss the count in. So we end up going back and forth.
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