Patriotism

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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    ask not what I can do for my country, ask instead what my country can do for me.

    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16010
    Are Native American "Indians" as patriotic as the descendants of European settlers ?
    Who are Americans really ?
    I don't know the answers but for some reason America has an incredibly effective way of taking numerous and diverse ethnicity immigrants and running them through a sausage factory to the point that within One generation they all emerge as starred and striped clones waving the star spangled banner and wholly identifying as proud Americans .....that seems to apply to Hispanics,Koreans,Italians,Polish ,Iranians,...........quite a phenomena.
    In Europe immigrants seem to keep their identity much more defined and their allegiance too .If National Service was introduced half the UK population would say "I go back to my country ".
    It seems that Europe and Australia allow multi-cultural society and are learning to celebrate it ........The USA does not have a multi-cultural society ......it has a multi-Origin Society but they all get "processed" and melded into an imprinted American Society to the point that they would probably fight for America if it declared war on their Country of Origin.
     Perhaps to be an American is a far greater aspiration for their population than to be a Brit or a Spaniard etc is for our population. 
     They buy into the identity 100 % .

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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    I'm not patriotic, I've no problem with other folks being if they want to be, but not in my name.

    What does bug me about it is, like anything, when it gets rammed down my throat by people telling me I SHOULD be patriotic, especially if their reason for saying it is because another country is patriotic therefore so should I be. 

    Also, for those that are in the "the bad stuff that happened years ago was not me" then by what logic can you take pride now as you've not much more influence over what the country is doing now than you did back then. Unless you want to take full credit for the government's intended flouting of human rights, oppression of those most in need and media control.

    But that's just my view, and I am quite happy with how I feel about this country, likewise patriotic folks are happy about their view of it - that's the beauty of us having our own viewpoints. I'm happy to listen to and contemplate other's views and fair play to them for having such views, however I'm not going to change just because people tell me I should, least of all because Americans are being used as a good example!

    Likewise I'm not supporting England tonight, why should I? But I wish both sides luck and may the best team win

    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
    soundcloud.com/thecolourbox-1
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  • BigLicks67BigLicks67 Frets: 766
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • BigLicks67BigLicks67 Frets: 766
    VimFuego said:
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.
    Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.
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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    It doesn't matter if nations or pride or patriotism or good exist, if we would just be a bit nicer to each other
    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
    soundcloud.com/thecolourbox-1
    youtube.com/@TheColourboxMusic
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    VimFuego said:
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.
    Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.
    you're welcome.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 1937
    Wolfetone said:

    We should shame anyone that disrespects Britain.

    Surely this is satire, if not North Korea's that way >>>> Blind patriotism is for the bovine and/or oppressed.
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    ICBM said:
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson



    Last refuge? Let's hope so.
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 8599
    It's important to point out that British history is characterised by evolution rather than revolution. Although we have 'stand out' historical events. 1066, Civil War, WWi and II. We don't have a specific event that we use to define ourselves.

    Of course the US has it's revolution and subsequent creation of the US Constitution and State. All Americans can identify with these events. There's nothing wrong with this except that for most of US history the reality was replaced by a national 'myth'. The US was founded for wealthy white landowners, not for everybody.

    It still seems to be the case that those not prepared to subscribe to the myth are still often accused of being un-patriotic or un-American.

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.


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  • LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 2243
    Britain's all about patriotism...

    Just think back to the royal wedding when finally, we had a nation to be proud of, everyone, got out the key to their lock box hidden under the floorboards and got out their union jack bunting and hung it up while they had their crumpets and victory gin.

    "Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother Britain."
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  • The problem with he US-style, Disneyfied version of patriotism is the notion of some kind of inherent superiority over people of other nations. People believing that they are somehow 'better' than citizens of other countries purely because of where they happen to have been born. Patriotism taken that far is a bit of a nonsense when you stop and think about it for two seconds.

    I once heard a psychologist explain her idea of 'healthy patriotism', making a strong analogy to general mental health and a sense of self-worth. The basic gist:

    Loving oneself and thinking you're brilliant without being able to acknowledge or attempt to deal with your faults and errors of your ways is not healthy - ie Narcissism. Blind patriotism - devotion to your country no matter what, and being unwilling to recognise the sins and crimes committed under the flag (past and present) is unhealthy, 'narcissistic' Patriotism.

    Being consumed with all your faults, and with the 'sins of the father' (so to speak), and being persistently wracked with guilt is not good for mental health - essentially a fast-track to anxiety and depression. Being persistently ashamed of your country and only being able to focus on its faults - especially guilt for things that happened centuries ago - is not a healthy way to view your country and appreciate your place in the world.

    Good mental health and a good sense of self-worth relies on being proud of who you are and what your strengths are, whilst also being able to recognise and attempt to rectify and come to terms with your faults and those of your forebears. It also relies on a healthy respect for the worth and qualities of everyone we come into contact with.

    Healthy patriotism is about being proud of everything great about your country (past and present), while also recognising and trying to come to terms with the crimes and errors of ours and previous generations. And it is also about recognising equality with people of other nations and respecting their qualities and cultures.

    I'm a proud Mackem, a proud Englishman, a proud Brit, proud EU-citizen and proud citizen of the world. I'm immensely proud of all the great things about our culture, past and present - our contributions to great literature, art, science, politics, our multi-cultural melting pot, and the general warmth of quality of our people. However I also recognise, attempt to come to terms with, and try to learn from the very many appalling crimes committed under the British flag both in the past and present. And I also don't believe we are somehow 'special' or better than people of other nations due to the fluke of where I happen to have been born.

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  • Oh, and COME ON ENGLAND!!!!!! =)
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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 1498
    edited July 2018
    The UK doesn't have a problem with a lack of patriotism. The USA has a problem with fascism.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    Without getting into too much of an in depth sociological analysis, I've never encountered anyone who has bulldogs, spitfires or Union Jacks emblazoned over their social media profile pics with an IQ of more than about 90.

    It's just not for me, or anyone I know really. 
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    I really don't understand the American patriotism thing.  I have no problem with anyone being proud of where they come from but American patriotism is bordering on fanatical and dangerous, and besides all else is just a bit daft.

    I've been to America a few times, I have many good friends who live there and I was married to a US national for many years.  It doesn't make my opinion more valid and I probably don't have any more insight into the subject than anyone else but it's given me a personal perspective.

    God bless America?  Really?  Why?  Assuming the majority of Americans believe in God, what makes America so special?  If God exists, why would he choose America over any other country?  And yet an American patriot believes America has God's blessing.

    It also seems to me, and I might be wrong, that in the eyes of many Americans (not all), America can do no wrong, and if you dare say that the good old USA is as flawed as any other country you're anti-American, a traitor or a communist.

    Mental, just mental.

    I don't think a true Brit is any less patriotic, we're just a bit more measured about it.  We don't need the fanfare that the US seems to crave.  I think the average Brit's response to "God bless America" would be "Yeah, alright, mate" while rolling eyes and with a wry smile.

    We're just a bit more grown up.  America with its self important rhetoric is like a pre-teen child who has just learned a new and unfathomably complicated word and feels the need to include it in every sentence.  



    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited July 2018

    VimFuego said:

    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    I agree to a point .. sadly history has shown that people will follow a rag on a pole. The Scots who want independence rally around the Saltire, the EDL rally around the Cross of St George. Both flags are potent symbols .... watch the England game on TV tonight .. flags everywhere .. English and Croatian.

    The Stars and Stripes and the Union Jack are probably the most recognisable flags around the world. The Union Jack even became a trendy brand emblazoned on T-shirts and bags across the globe. To some people around the world the  Union Jack represents oppression and evil crimes during days of Empire and to others cool culture, great music and freedom. So flags do matter - they do evoke emotions.

    The problem with patriotism is where it ultimately leads .. Trump uses it all the time and so far has had some success in building dialogue with rogue states but in pitching the trade war with China as a patriotic struggle (America first) he risks war with another super power.



    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    I think that my point was, people shouldn't worship the flag, the flag should worship the people. The state should exist to serve the people, when the people serve the state it's no different to feudalism.

    I accept that this is an idealistic position and doesn't reflect reality, but sometimes reality can go suck a large one as far as I'm concerned. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 692
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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