Patriotism

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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 2566
    Wolfetone said:

    Am I wrong or should I just become an American and be done with it? 
    Yes, and yes.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    Wolfetone said:
    I have been to the US four times this year. The outstanding feature of the States is the patriotism of its people and I would go so far to say that there is no more a patriotic nation than America. The flag is omnipresent and revered. The military and police are thanked for their service and given priority treatment in most places. 


    You'll spontaneously ejaculate when you go to North Korea then. 



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  • PhiltrePhiltre Frets: 4164
    Wolfetone said:
    I have been to the US four times this year. The outstanding feature of the States is the patriotism of its people and I would go so far to say that there is no more a patriotic nation than America. The flag is omnipresent and revered. The military and police are thanked for their service and given priority treatment in most places. 


    You'll spontaneously ejaculate when you go to North Korea then. 
    :-)

    /thread
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    Can't think of another country that has so defined itself by its cinema.

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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 8599
    If an advanced civilisation stumbled across earth and witnessed this single species organising itself on the basis of imaginary borders, they would piss themselves laughing and bugger off home.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71953
    JezWynd said:
    Can't think of another country that has so defined itself by its cinema.
    That's a very good observation, and the result is that it's become its own mythology.

    There's a shoot-out at the end and the good guys win...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    On American patriotism... I think it's pretty weird. The idea that children are effectively indoctrinated in school, with the pledge of allegiance recited regularly... it just seems creepy to me, and an obvious form of control. I think British culture is much more cynical and dare I say even critical of that kind of state propaganda, maybe that's one of the reasons our class system is much more overt than the American one - there's no point trying to dress it up, because we'd see through it. In the states there's a very strong class system but the Steinbeck line about everyone being "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" rings true to me - the working class are sold the American dream and believe in it, that despite all the evidence against it America truly is a meritocracy where hard work pays off and anyone can make it.

    In Britain, our society is very old, our state institutions have the implicit authority and respect that centuries of continuity give them. So maybe they simply don't require such overt displays of unity and methods of indoctrination. We can afford to be glib and cynical because they are secure.

    re; the OP suggesting that we should shame people who aren't Patriotic... that's so stupid a suggestion I assume you only put it in there to generate some controversy and get the conversation moving. Hats off to you sir, you have succeeded.
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6594
    edited July 2018
    Patriotism is defined as National Pride. Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
    We need to evolve sharpish, or we is (to quote the great man) fucked.

    Sorry to be so blunt and short but to be brutally honest, patriotism scares the shit out of me. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    With respect the UK didn't invent apartheid (segregation by race) or concentration camps. In the modern era you have to look to the USA for both.

    Apartheid was introduced into an independent South Africa by the Afrikaner government. Britain gave SA independence in 1931.



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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    I do feel some importance in where I come from and where I live. I find it interesting that I have some explanation of the world around me, I can relate my tiny patch of land to King John, Henry VIII, the industrial revolution and the last forty years of local authority planning policies ( there may have been some other stuff inbetween these). It’s nice to find points of shared experience and interest with other people - following the fortunes of England in the World Cup for example. 

    But I understand there is nothing inherently superior in any of this compared to my equivalent in small town Germany or small town Kenya, and much of what I value has little to do with the British establishment so I'm not sure I have any sense of patriotism. 


    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • westwest Frets: 994
    Half them wild west hero's wos frum daan the lye dudley and walsall ;)  ..... https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gunfight-ok-corral-result-black-9721004

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • westwest Frets: 994
    yep and if you know valley road you could see why lol ,  buffalow bill cody was robbed in dudley i larfed ....
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11670
    Surely, patriotism, like other "faiths" can be used for good or bad things, depending upon who uses it, and for what.

    Pride in those around you, respect for their abilities and their diverse opinions and backgrounds, united around a common event or piece of history (for example, England's current World Cup campaign) can be a very positive thing, bringing a sense of happiness, togetherness etc.

    Negatively, it can be identified with race, or a particular set of cultural values that cannot be realistically applied to any group of people large enough to be a modern nation, or worse still identified with negative behaviour (I'm English and we won the football so I'll drink beyond the point of self-control and smash up an ambulance)...

    A knowledge of Britain's history provides a very interesting perspective.  We can be very proud of our behaviour during WW2 for the most part, but we did carpet bomb German cities full of women and children.  Churchill as an individual provided a focal point without which the free world would have had a much more difficult time defeating the Nazis, but his lowest ever point (personally refusing to divert shipping to alleviate the Indian famine) happened in the same period.

    Still, my union jack guitar still indicates I'm proud to be British, but I'd never consider that "pride" blind or devotional.
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    edited July 2018
    Kilgore said:

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.

    That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism. 

    Stalin realised that the only way that the the USSR would be able to stand up to Germany was by ressurecting nationalism (hence the Great Patriotic War).
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    Yeah, we didn't really invent concentration camps, not in the way that the term is typically used (as extermination camps). 

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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Or The Good, The Bad, and the Dudley
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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    I have an instinctive aversion to over-enthusiastic tribalism in all its forms, including basic bigotry, racism, inter-estate/town gang fights, inter religion conflict, nationalism, football 'ultras', etc, etc.I don't like uniforms or any form or icon designed to unite and represent any particular tribe, for example flags, football scarves, badges, crosses, tattoos, etc.. I also don't like ceremonies where there is an expectation of how to behave or dress. Obviously patriotism is not really for me...

    I'm not sure why this is but life experience/nurture obviously plays a big part. Fear of being beaten up for being from the wrong part of town. Seeing Orange walks first hand and seeing the hatred they bred. Seeing war after war after war and the needless deaths of millions on the news (because of the accident of birth place). I can't look at patriotism and separate it from all the negative consequences of our tribal instinct.

    I'm basically a big quivering libtard snowflake...


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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    The UK doesn't have a problem with a lack of patriotism. The USA has a problem with fascism.
    Oh c'mon now. Cut them a bit of slack given that they are having to endure the presidency of a wannabe demagogue. Let's call it proto-fascism.
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