Patriotism

Fretwired · July 2018

quarky said:

ChuckManual said:

Nationality is just an accident of birth. Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.

Yeah, we didn't really invent concentration camps, not in the way that the term is typically used (as extermination camps).

You are right (although I was lol'd for saying so).

The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

EricTheWeary · July 2018

thecolourbox said:

EricTheWeary said:

Fretwired said:

EricTheWeary said:

TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS
1. Lye Noon
2. Blazing Saddlers
3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid
4. Dancing With Wolves
5. No Country for Oldbury Men
6. Bad Day At Blackheath
7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings
8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands
9. Hang Em High Bullen
10. High Arcal Plains Drifter

Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..

The Good, the Bad and the Baggies?

Or The Good, The Bad, and the Dudley

In terms of word play that's better. Possible title for my first album...

Teetonetal · July 2018

I'm not keen on nationalism and patriotism. Always strikes me as an exercise in self glorification and justification whilst conveniently forgetting the shit things that have been done in your name . Much better for people to have pride in the individuals they know, the things they achieve and the kindness they bestow.

Flags can fuck right off.

quarky · July 2018

Fretwired said:
The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

And even then, anyone who did the *smallest* amount of research before jumping to conclusions, would see that deaths in those camps (of which disease was the primary cause) when DOWN over time, not up, as the British did everything they could to improve conditions.

But that doesn't fit the modern rhetoric.

FarleyUK · July 2018

I'm going to the USA next week for a month to see my sister - in Salt Lake City. I LOVE this part of the US - would move there in a heratbeat if I could, although being a foreigner is quite unusual in SLC; nobody really visits it.

It makes the whole patriotism very difficult, especially when at a public event and they play the American anthem. I'll stand for the US anthem, but I don't put my hand on my heart. I'm always conscious it just takes one nutter in the crowd to notice it and take offence. Makes me want to talk loudly in my best posh English accent.

ewal · July 2018

Teetonetal said:

Flags can fuck right off.

Someone up the road from me was flying a Union flag out their window at the weekend. My natural reaction was that it must be some sort of drink fuelled pre-12 July affinity with the Orange Order sort of statement. Or a Rangers supporter excited about the start of the new season (both of which you don't really expect in Perth). Not for a moment did I (or I suspect any of my neighbours) think it was an innocent display of British patriotism. That just doesn't happen round here.

Flags can indeed fuck right off.

munckee · July 2018

The idea of a nation is the same as the idea of religion really except that it doesn't require a father christmas type character or set of agreed values, just an agreed set of borders.

Either way its just an excuse to form a group and kill other groups : )

bodhi · July 2018

quarky said:

Fretwired said:
The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

And even then, anyone who did the *smallest* amount of research before jumping to conclusions, would see that deaths in those camps (of which disease was the primary cause) when DOWN over time, not up, as the British did everything they could to improve conditions.

But that doesn't fit the modern rhetoric.

10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly. That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

That's the way I recall it.

Didn't help the 10% much, though.

Chalky · July 2018

JezWynd said:

ICBM said:

“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson

Last refuge? Let's hope so.

Er....

Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.

However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.

For more of Samuel Johnson's thoughts on patriotism in general, go to the patriotism page.

For a discussion on a possible false patriot who Johnson might have been thinking of, see this discussion

quarky · July 2018

bodhi said:

10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly. That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

That's the way I recall it.

Didn't help the 10% much, though.

Yes, people died in the war through incompetence and inexperience, and of course the Boer attacks. That doesn't mean that death was the purpose of the camp like it was with those camps in Germany, the USSR, the Balkan's etc. They are completely different, and it is a bit disrespectful to those who did die in those camps in WW2 onwards, to pretend that their murder/extermination was anything other than that.

And concerns were raised in Parliament before Emily Hobhouse raised them (not sure why that makes any difference)?

Fretwired · July 2018

bodhi said:

10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly. That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

That's the way I recall it.

Didn't help the 10% much, though.

No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners. The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.

ChuckManual · July 2018

Fretwired said:

The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.

The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.

To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.

What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!) The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!

Kilgore · July 2018

quarky said:

Kilgore said:

You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

The rehabilitation of Stalin.

That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism.

Eh?

I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.

Fretwired · July 2018

ChuckManual said:

Fretwired said:

The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.
The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.
To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.
What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!) The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!

I'm sorry but this is wrong on so many levels.

The British camps weren't death camps. Those are intentionally set up to kill people. The British didn't create the camps to kill people - they wanted to deny the Boer fighters access to home and food.

People died in the camps from poor conditions and disease (there was a typhoid epidemic in South Africa) which is neglect not murder. British charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which it did. However, Boer guerillas deliberately targeted supply trains heading to the camps under the belief the British would be forced to release people if there wasn't enough food or medicine. The British resolve stiffened and yes people died. Towards the end of the war hardly anyone was dying as food, medical facilities and sanitation were improved as attacks on supplies stopped.

Over one million people were killed in Auschwitz compared to 26,370 Boer women and children and another 20, 000 black Africans who died in British run camps. My maths is not brilliant but I don't think your statement the death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, holds water.

Your other statement doesn't stack up either: To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period. Is

Some official figures of deaths in captivity. I excluded the death railway as that was forced labour.

Americans: 36,260 Military of whom 13,381 died as POWS; Australians: 21,000 military of whom 8031 died as POWS; British: 50,000+ military of who 12,433 died as POWS; Dutch: 100,000+ military of whom an estimated 25,000 died as POWS. It is estimated 25,000 Indian POWs died.

Thirteen ships were sunk while transporting 15,712 POWs from South East Asia to Japan. Some of the ships sunk had no survivors. An estimated 10,720 prisoners died on these unmarked Hell Ships on the way to Japan.

Not sure where you get your ideas from but they don't stand up to scrutiny.

quarky · July 2018

ChuckManual said:

While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.
The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.
To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.
What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!) The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!

OK, riddle me this, if they camps were "death camps", why did they do all they could to IMPROVE conditions and mortality rates?

You are taking a single statistic, and using it to compare different camps created in different eras for different reasons, and saying, "oh look, the are the same!"

ICBM · July 2018

ChuckManual said:

While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.

If you want to be really correct it probably wasn't the British, or the Americans or even the Spanish. It's more likely to have been the Mongols in China or Europe, the Arabs or the Crusaders in Palestine, the Romans in Carthage and Gaul, the Egyptians in Nubia or the Greeks at Troy. Or when modern humans wiped out the Neanderthals.

Humans are just nasty, murderous creatures whenever there's an argument about territory, resources, race, religion or one of the other things we constantly fight about.

To be fair, we're probably very slowly getting more civilised, although it doesn't take a lot for the mask to slip.

quarky · July 2018

Kilgore said:

quarky said:

Kilgore said:

You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

The rehabilitation of Stalin.

That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism.

Eh?

I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.

Ah OK. Fair enough. Yeah it has gone around in a circle hasn't it. I wonder how much of that is influenced by the rise in Nationalism in Eastern Europe that lead to those nations escaping the USSR?

Heartfeltdawn · July 2018

Kilgore said:
Eh?

I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.

I can't remember much of Russian history at university but wasn't Stalin someone who went all over the place when it comes to nationalism over his lifetime?

ChuckManual · July 2018

OK, after a bit of research (probably best done before commiting things to print) it turns out that my old history teacher, Mr Williams (Welsh ...hmmm... suspicious) may have been a bit wide of the mark on just how bad the British (the English) were on this score.

Mainly though, I'm annoyed that the huge lengths I went to, to make an Adele joke, were overshadowed by my facts being all over the place...

I'm sticking well-and-truly to my original assertion that Patriotism is horse shit though!

Fretwired · July 2018

ChuckManual said:

OK, after a bit of research (probably best done before commiting things to print) it turns out that my old history teacher, Mr Williams (Welsh ...hmmm... suspicious) may have been a bit wide of the mark on just how bad the British (the English) were on this score.

Mainly though, I'm annoyed that the huge lengths I went to, to make an Adele joke, were overshadowed by my facts being all over the place...

Go on .. tell the Adele joke again .... :-)

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