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  • Grocer_JackGrocer_Jack Frets: 258
    ICBM said:
    ewal said:
    ...the nuances of distortion, OD and fuzz. But if truth be told there really is a limit to the number of clipping/EQ flavours that can be produced, especially from the listening audience point of view. As such the industry is all a bit of a snake oil sale, designed to part players with their money.

    Discuss.
    I think there are actually only about four overdrive sounds the average non-musician can recognise or differentiate...

    Light break-up
    Smooth midrange overdrive
    Heavy scooped distortion
    Fuzz

    Beyond that, how it's EQ'd, fits into the mix, and what the player does with it are the main factors in 'different' sounds.

    That doesn't mean there are only four types of pedals of course, but you can probably get by with only one each of those and cover nearly any sound if you know how to use them effectively.

    bbill335 said:

    It's amazing how many variations of fuzz you can get from a pair of transistors and a few component swaps.
    Yes, but it's also amazing how much variation you can get with just one fuzz and an EQ pedal.
    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    most people could get buy with 1 or two guitars, 1 amp and a couple of FX - but that's no good to the industry, it requires us to constantly search for something more, to spend more money, to invest.
    The problem for the industry is that it’s painted itself into a corner. The growth - or even sustainability - of the market requires levels of ownership which would have been unthinkable not that long ago. Many bedroom guitarists now own more gear than most rock stars did in the 1970s, and manufacturers rely on it. If the number of players starts to fall, or if - unlikely as it seems - they start to decide that actually they don’t need half a dozen guitars, three amps and a multitude of pedals, they’re in real trouble.

    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • RiftAmpsRiftAmps Frets: 3113
    tFB Trader
    I think it's fair to say that whilst we have many pedal companies simply churning out clones, there's also a few guys who have the balls to say...

    "I don't think the (insert famous pedal name here) is the best sounding it can be, here are my reasons why and what I would like it to do instead"

    Then they go off, design a new circuit from scratch, prototype, test, tweak, test, tweak, test, scrap it, start again from scratch, test, tweak, test, tweak, blind test, tweak, blind test, tweak, test etc etc etc

    They keep going until they have a pedal that achieves the brief they set out and is a genuinely better pedal. A win for us all.

    Those guys should be applauded.
    *I no longer offer replacement speaker baffles*
    Rift Amplification
    Handwired Guitar Amplifiers
    Brackley, Northamptonshire
    www.riftamps.co.uk

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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 692
    RiftAmps said:
    I think it's fair to say that whilst we have many pedal companies simply churning out clones, there's also a few guys who have the balls to say...

    "I don't think the (insert famous pedal name here) is the best sounding it can be, here are my reasons why and what I would like it to do instead"

    Then they go off, design a new circuit from scratch, prototype, test, tweak, test, tweak, test, scrap it, start again from scratch, test, tweak, test, tweak, blind test, tweak, blind test, tweak, test etc etc etc

    They keep going until they have a pedal that achieves the brief they set out and is a genuinely better pedal. A win for us all.

    Those guys should be applauded.

    Yes - Stand up @ThorpyFX and take a bow!
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • Grocer_JackGrocer_Jack Frets: 258
    ICBM said:
    most people could get buy with 1 or two guitars, 1 amp and a couple of FX - but that's no good to the industry, it requires us to constantly search for something more, to spend more money, to invest.
    The problem for the industry is that it’s painted itself into a corner. The growth - or even sustainability - of the market requires levels of ownership which would have been unthinkable not that long ago. Many bedroom guitarists now own more gear than most rock stars did in the 1970s, and manufacturers rely on it. If the number of players starts to fall, or if - unlikely as it seems - they start to decide that actually they don’t need half a dozen guitars, three amps and a multitude of pedals, they’re in real trouble.

    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.
    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 
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  • english_bobenglish_bob Frets: 5128
    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.
    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 

    Yes they are.

    What you're being sold is the idea that you aren't the average listener. You my friend have golden ears and highly refined exquisite taste, and can discern the sound of true quality and awsum toan, unlike all those other cloth-eared twats.

    That's why you bought the new Emperor Drive (New Clothes edition).



    To be fair, I don't think it's done quite that cynically, or that deliberately, but it's being done.

    Don't talk politics and don't throw stones. Your royal highnesses.

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.
    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 

    Yes they are.

    What you're being sold is the idea that you aren't the average listener. You my friend have golden ears and highly refined exquisite taste, and can discern the sound of true quality and awsum toan, unlike all those other cloth-eared twats.

    That's why you bought the new Emperor Drive (New Clothes edition).



    To be fair, I don't think it's done quite that cynically, or that deliberately, but it's being done.

    Vertex. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • This is one of the hardest things for me to understand about pedals and demos - quite why someone can't just say what something is without 25 minutes of fluff is ridicolours.

    This is a modification of a TS, this is a modification of a Big Muff, etc. etc.
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  • english_bobenglish_bob Frets: 5128
    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.
    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 

    Yes they are.

    What you're being sold is the idea that you aren't the average listener. You my friend have golden ears and highly refined exquisite taste, and can discern the sound of true quality and awsum toan, unlike all those other cloth-eared twats.

    That's why you bought the new Emperor Drive (New Clothes edition).



    To be fair, I don't think it's done quite that cynically, or that deliberately, but it's being done.

    Vertex. 

    Okay, he did it that cynically and deliberately. 

    Don't talk politics and don't throw stones. Your royal highnesses.

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  • Grocer_JackGrocer_Jack Frets: 258
    To these 4 types I'd add - 'amp simulator' drives. I don't mean straight into the PA pedals (although some can be used like this), I'm thinking of pedals that give an overdriven sound like a Tweed/AC-30/Plexi etc. 
    Those are covered, mostly in the first category - it's just the basic character of the sound, not whether it sounds like an amp.

    The average listener can’t tell the difference between amp overdrive and a pedal anyway.
    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 

    Yes they are.

    What you're being sold is the idea that you aren't the average listener. You my friend have golden ears and highly refined exquisite taste, and can discern the sound of true quality and awsum toan, unlike all those other cloth-eared twats.

    That's why you bought the new Emperor Drive (New Clothes edition).



    To be fair, I don't think it's done quite that cynically, or that deliberately, but it's being done.

    I am under no illusions that I have exquisite taste. I do think I am pretty good at getting a variety of drive sounds that *I* like, although I'm quite prepared to believe that many others wouldn't like them! 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Grocer_Jack said:

    Ok point taken re: amp in a box. But the average listener is irrelevant here, as they are not being marketed to. 
    Actually ewal did specifically ask about the listening audience :).

    I can see it from both sides - there's a big difference between the audience and the player, who is inside the 'feedback loop' of the equipment and so much more sensitive to nuances which change the tone relative to the technique, which are largely lost on the outside listener.

    I've certainly been guilty of over-analysing my gear in the past, but these days I tend to find I sound like me through anything... out of laziness mostly :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    edited July 2018
    Interesting to read all the responses and yes I do think how things sound to the listener is critical.

    The reason I posted was because I was listening to a guitar part (Mogwai although artist is irrelevant) and wondering what sort of distortion would give that sound so started to experiment with my pedals. First up I tried my Digitech Carcosa and found I could get pretty close, then I tried my Rat clone and found I could get equally as close. Of course up until this point I'd thought of them as being quite sonically different pedals, and it was only after considering them from a detached listening perspective, trying to emulate someone else's sound, did the thought strike me that there really is not much difference. Especially for this particular application.

    I then watched one of these Reverb videos which claims to demonstrate how to emulate a particular artist's sound using pedals, but is really there to sell you some overly expensive boutique niceness. It was Sonic Youth in this case - they demoed lots of different pedal combinations, but in most cases some very basic pedals would get you there - bog standard overdrive, fuzz and basic modulation. It's the riffs, the layering of the parts, the guitar tunings and playing style that are much more important.

    ETA: One of the pedals that Reverb were using for the Sonic Youth video was a Zvex '59 Sound. As far as I can see that's about 200 quids worth of pedal for some mild gain/clipping... wtf!
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    Then there's the evolution (or lack thereof) of a particular favourite guitarists tone over the years. For me, take someone like Swervedriver's Adam Franklin. Over the years he's used Boss, OCDs, Hotcakes, Catalinbread pedals - yet over the years I can't hear any discernible difference in his sound. Always sounds like Adam Franklin playing Swervdriver riffs on a Jazzmaster.
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • soma1975soma1975 Frets: 6627
    There’s an episode of TPS where they demo a King of Tone and then the £70 Tone City clone and it sounds 1000% identical in the a/b and they just kinda go ‘well it sort of sounds alright for the money’ and dismiss it and move on. 

    Properly wound me up. 
    My Trade Feedback Thread is here

    Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    I have built a lot of drive pedals -- for myself, not as a business -- over the past year. And because I'm building them, I can play around with different tone cap/resistor values, and different clipping diode combinations in standard circuit types.

    The differences are real, but I'd absolutely agree that most of those differences aren't particularly worth caring about, and when they are audible they are explicable via simple component choices. The snake oil merchants are taking the piss when they sell their TS with a slightly different low end shelf, or a distortion pedal X with an extra clipping diode in series on one side.

    I have found a few designs that genuinely seem to do something a bit different, in a way that I can clearly hear -- there are interesting designs out there -- but most of the time it's basically what @ICBM wrote above:

    • Light break-up
    • Smooth midrange overdrive
    • Heavy scooped distortion
    • Fuzz



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  • Dave_VaderDave_Vader Frets: 359
    I have a lot of different pedals because I am averse to bending down mid show and having to turn any knobs

    THis is actually true
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  • english_bobenglish_bob Frets: 5128
    soma1975 said:
    There’s an episode of TPS where they demo a King of Tone and then the £70 Tone City clone and it sounds 1000% identical in the a/b and they just kinda go ‘well it sort of sounds alright for the money’ and dismiss it and move on. 

    Properly wound me up. 

     I remember that. As weak as it sounds when you say it in so many words, I do think that:

    What you hear via their microphones and whatever jiggery-pokery Youtube applies to audio isn't necessarily what they heard in the room.

    ICBM's point about being "inside the feedback loop" is valid- two pedals can sound identical but feel completely different.


    But yeah, the two did sound identical on the video.


    Don't talk politics and don't throw stones. Your royal highnesses.

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  • peteripeteri Frets: 1283

    I used to buy every OD/Distortion I could, I reckon I've owned most in my life.

    Then I switched to Fractal.

    One of the things which worried me was the lack of models (especially compared to Line 6) in the OD department. But actually it's amazing, I only ever use three 'pedals' - clean boost ('Klone'), TS and occasionally a Fuzz. Nothing else

    Of course this is somewhat artificial because I can change amps instead in the model, but even there - much as I enjoy programming different sounds - if forced I reckon I'd only ever need a maximum of four amps, and could get by on 2-3.

    So realistically - in the real world, clean boost, TS boost, Fuzz, two channel amp - sorted! It's amazing to say aloud

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413

    I've built myself a few pedals.  There are differences, but they aren't huge.

    I've a TS style build that's a bit hybrid between a TS and the Fulltone FD/Boss SD1 circuit.

    I did tweak the frequency where it starts to attenuate the low end.  I wanted that TS mid hump that the FD2 didn't quite have, but not as pronounced as the TS, so I tweaked a couple of components to set that frequency about halfway between the two.  It makes a minor difference, but it's not night and day.  I'd quite happily use a TS or a Fulldrive if that was what was available.  To be honest, if I'd had a Fulldrive in a smaller box without the boost side doubling the footprint, I'd have never bothered to build this pedal.

    Likewise with the clipping.  When I built it, I had all kinds of ideas about switchable diodes and symmetrical/asymmetrical clipping.  Once I built it, I started out with the standard TS diodes and it sounded great.  I then put an extra diode in one side to get asymmetrical clipping.  I think I marginally prefer it, but I wouldn't be confident I could pick it out in a blind test.  The differences are small.  The pedal sounded great that way, so I just left it as it was and didn't bother with all the switchable diode stuff.

    For me, the biggest difference between a lot of these pedals is the EQ voicing rather than the clipping.  Something with a pronounced mid hump like a TS will sound a bit different from something flatter sounding like an OCD.

    Some of them do respond differently to picking dynamics.  Some pedals are very compressed and don't change much with how you pick, but others can be a lot more sensitive to dynamics.  Set with the gain low, an OCD on 18V, can go from sounding clean when picked gently, to sounding quite driven when you pick hard.

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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9446
    There was a thread a few years ago on TGP basically stating that nearly all ODs are the same... very intersting, as I have felt that many time myself.

    Our 'market' is unique in that originally, YouTube videos had neutral videos giving good opinion. A huge industry has nice spawned, and naturally things have changed...

    I really miss buying pedals, especially ODs, but the hype is not missed.
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