So, that whole thing about Gibson quality control...

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    terada said:
    thegummy said:
    My experience is firstly hearing the reputation then buying a Gibson and finding the stories to be true. See my previous thread: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/127737/what-is-this-score-mark

    That's definitely not personnel preference, that's a case where if that is still seen as acceptable at the qc check, I dread to think what would be rejected.

    It could be that Gibson just put out anything for their budget models and are pickier when the price goes up to thousands. But their "budget" model is 900 quid. A guitar at that price from a brand known for tight qc would never have that kind of flaw.

    I'm annoyed at myself for buying it because I did notice the problem at the second fret but at the time I was determined that "only a Gibson would do" and it was the only one I could afford so took it. By the time I noticed the score mark I had already changed the pickups so couldn't return it (I had been bought the new pickups as a present before the guitar so was always going to change them immediately.

    Even with myself to blame, it's completely unacceptable to let that pass qc on a 900 quid guitar, regardless of the price of that company's other models.

    I'm taking it in to get it looked at this week but I'm expecting that it would cost more to fix than it would be worth. Can only take it as a learning experience and at least I won't have that "if only I got a real Gibson" nagging in my head.
    Completely agree that that is not acceptable. There was nothing like that I noticed on any of the ones I tried.

    Did you try a number of others that were the same?



    They only had one Tribute, there seemed to have been a lack of supply of those.

    I should have been patient and left it when I noticed the problem at the second fret but I'd convinced myself I wanted a Gibson so it was a bit impulsive that I took it rather than leaving it.

    I really should have waited for a bit before modding it too then I could have returned it but again I was in a bit of an impulse.

    At the moment I've changed the pickups to P90s and the tuners to Schallers. If nothing can be realistic done about the flaws I'll just kind of see it as a guitar that I'm not afraid to ding which could be "freeing" in a weird way. Just trying to make the best of as bad situation.

    Initially I was planning to sell it but I'm very busy and rarely at home so the thought of going through the hassle of selling it just didn't seem worth it.
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  • jeztone2jeztone2 Frets: 2160
    terada said:
    Wow. I had hoped to add a bit of positivity 

    My point is that a lot of what people attribute to poor QC are guitars that don’t resonate with a particular player, or are too dark sounding, or too light sounding, or have variances in burst/woods that make them more or less desirable to different players. 

    From my (recent) experience, these were simply down to unit to unit variance on hand made items. None better or worse, but all slightly different. 

    I noticed no greater deviation between models than with other brands that people often describe as having very tight tolerances unit to unit. 

    Please note that this is from first hand experience of travelling across the country to actually play them, and I’d say a sample of 25 is pretty sizeable for a 100% success rate. 

    You hear all the time that to buy a Gibson you need to play a bunch first. I think this makes sense, but not because a high proportion are faulty and still on shop floors, but just because each instrument is unique. 

    It was was the same when buying my partners cello for example. 



    So how come Ibanez and Yamaha can knock it out of the park with a cheaper instrument? 

    My nephews ESP LTD is an amazing instrument. All Gibson need to do is put a bit more CNC in and a better QA program. That’s how everyone else does it. 
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583

     I've only bought one Gibson new, a 2016 LP Standard.  I played half a dozen, pretty similar tone and feel, and didn't spot any QC issues with them.  I left it with the shop for a week for them to set it up to my preference and choice of strings and they did 2 years warranty instead of one.  Couldn't be happier - maybe I was lucky?  

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  • Not sure if this falls under a QC issue for gibson but i’ve had a couple of melodymakers both with slightly misshaped headstocks on one side just above the nut.
    Even my p90 junior special has a similar thing.
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594

    I've come across quite a few new Gibsons that have had QC issues.  To make it worse, none of them were really difficult to fix; over spray, poor finish quality (just needed a bit more buffing), sharp fret ends, bad final setups. 

    I think the worst one was a LP standard I used to own, the inlays were cut by Heath Robinson himself, with a spoon!

    That said, of all the Gibsons ever manufactured I've played and seen a tiny fraction of a drop in the ocean so it's hardly indicative of all of their output.

    And as far as internet hate for Gibson QC goes, take it with a pinch of salt; people rarely offload to the internet about how amazing their new guitar/car/dishwasher/etc is. 

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71953
    Haych said:

    I've come across quite a few new Gibsons that have had QC issues.  To make it worse, none of them were really difficult to fix; over spray, poor finish quality (just needed a bit more buffing), sharp fret ends, bad final setups. 

    Or so serious the guitar should have gone back for a complete re-build, like the J-185 with the neck misalignment. Not just passed as 'OK' and put in the case.

    The more serious faults like this that I've seen couldn't possibly have been *not* noticed by more than one employee either. To continue using this example (and I'm not exaggerating by the way - the top E string was literally off the side of the fingerboard by the time it got above the body joint), the person who put the strings on and the person who play-tested it and signed it off at the very least *must* have noticed something wasn't right. We are not talking about a bottom-of-the-range model either, this guitar cost well over three grand.

    That said, when I looked at an SG Les Paul that wouldn't stay in tune properly because the sideways vibrola was fitted off-centre, I found a pic online of an original 60s one with exactly the same fault! It's nothing new.

    And for balance, my favourite acoustic guitar I've ever played is the 2008 Gibson Dove I own. It isn't flawless - the top edge of the headstock was never polished after finishing - but other than that it is, and it simply sounds and plays beautifully.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    I genuinely wonder if slack quality control is part of their business policy and if that's related to the fact that the brand name itself is so powerful that it can sell well despite all the problems.
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    I bought a brand new SG 2018 standard online and it arrived in perfect condition.  No flaws, very resonant acoustically, plays like a dream,  I'm very pleased with it.   Build quality looks perfect to me.   Want a les paul standard to match it now. 
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  • chrisj1602chrisj1602 Frets: 3889
    I've owned 7 Gibsons, never had any issues (except the doubling of prices)
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 7731
    It's been said that Gibson is not a great company to work for so I'd wonder how many QC issues are due to rushed production or simply employees who mildly resent being there.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26748
    thegummy said:
    I genuinely wonder if slack quality control is part of their business policy and if that's related to the fact that the brand name itself is so powerful that it can sell well despite all the problems.
    It's been said that Gibson is not a great company to work for so I'd wonder how many QC issues are due to rushed production or simply employees who mildly resent being there.
    A little from column A, a little from column B. 

    From everything I've read it's a horrible place to work - anyone flagging any issues with anything (not just QC) gets in shit themselves for slowing things down or being a "troublemaker", rather than having management take a step back and look at what might actually be causing problems. I suspect that's partly because the ultimate cause os a lot of issues is Henry himself, who doesn't seem to be able to take criticism on any level.

    That then extends to the production line, where it appears to be more important to get a certain number of tasks done in a day, and doing the right number badly is considered better than doing 90% but to a much higher standard. Again, going back to the PRS comparison, empowering everyone to do the job properly and also having everyone on the line responsible for QC checks  of all previous steps seems to be a much better process and results in a much better end product.

    But the brand value is very strong - we all accept that Gibsons can have minor flaws but there is no choice if you want that name on the headstock. And when they get it right they're unquestionably among the best instruments you can buy.
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • brooombrooom Frets: 1170
    They do screw up from time to time. I mean the finish quality in some of the memphis guitars was atrocious. Even though they were excellent guitars.

    Also a lot of people are really picky about smaller details. I've seen this happen from time to time.

    Almost like they bought the guitar to stare at, rather then to play.
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    ICBM said:
    Haych said:

    I've come across quite a few new Gibsons that have had QC issues.  To make it worse, none of them were really difficult to fix; over spray, poor finish quality (just needed a bit more buffing), sharp fret ends, bad final setups. 

    Or so serious the guitar should have gone back for a complete re-build, like the J-185 with the neck misalignment. Not just passed as 'OK' and put in the case.

    The more serious faults like this that I've seen couldn't possibly have been *not* noticed by more than one employee either. To continue using this example (and I'm not exaggerating by the way - the top E string was literally off the side of the fingerboard by the time it got above the body joint), the person who put the strings on and the person who play-tested it and signed it off at the very least *must* have noticed something wasn't right. We are not talking about a bottom-of-the-range model either, this guitar cost well over three grand.

    That said, when I looked at an SG Les Paul that wouldn't stay in tune properly because the sideways vibrola was fitted off-centre, I found a pic online of an original 60s one with exactly the same fault! It's nothing new.

    And for balance, my favourite acoustic guitar I've ever played is the 2008 Gibson Dove I own. It isn't flawless - the top edge of the headstock was never polished after finishing - but other than that it is, and it simply sounds and plays beautifully.
    I’m not suggested there aren’t some real bloopers out there, I’m sure there are and obviously you’ve had first hand experience with some of them. 

    My own encounters with Gibson’s lack of good QC haven’t been as dramatic.

    A neck misalignment as bad as you’ve described shouldn’t have even made it to finishing and final assembly in my opinion, let alone be checked off as passed and placed in a case and shipped. 

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16542
    Even in this thread, the real experiences are very mixed.  That’s the point.

    In a thread about PRS you would get many who don’t like them, but few who could highlight QC flaws.


    the next question is how they deal with those issues when they do occur....
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  • stonevibestonevibe Frets: 7080
    The major issue with Gibson in the UK for many years was Rosetti who were their old distributor and then Gibson took over their own distribution and it was still pretty poor.

    I have seen some truly terrible high-end Gibson models when I worked in music stores in the '90s, misaligned necks,  twisted necks,  hardware installed out of alignment and lots of finishing issues.

    As already mentioned PRS don't suffer from any of this.




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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    edited July 2018
    As others have said, this is nothing new with Gibson - the ‘64 335 I used to own had the holes for the stop tail and bridge posts drilled in the wrong place. The bridge post holes were plugged with dowels (clearly visible through the factory finish) and the stop tail holes were covered with a ‘Custom Made’ plate - and a Bigsby was fitted. This was in their ‘Golden Era’....

    What most modern makers (and I include Fender in this) seem to have done, is find better ways of machining parts, to eliminate ‘builder error’. Gibson - for reasons I don’t understand - still set neck angles by hand - hence the level of variation.

    I don’t actually think Gibson’s quality has changed that much over the years - they make vast numbers of guitars and have always let ones out that shouldn’t have been.
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  • TA22GTTA22GT Frets: 362
    I've refrained from posting this as it sounds beyond belief but it's totally true. I think it was the 94 show.

    Through connections with the music trade I've been to NAAM a few times. My pals have made lot's of connections there and one time we stayed at the Manager of the Gibson Dobro plants apartment for the duration. He was off from work to be at NAAM but got called in to the factory and asked if we would like to go with him and then straight to Anaheim.
    Yes please!

    I got the shock of my life. It was a very dirty, dark place. The way they were operating was beyond belief. There were about a dozen or so workers there, all migrants, and only two spoke decent English.
     One was better than the other so we were told he had been made the foreman as he could pass on instructions to the others. Nothing to do with his mechanical skills.

    The problem he had been called in for was because the necks were being set in at the wrong angle resulting in an action of about 5/8ths of an inch at the body. The guy who had been doing that job had left and there was nobody there skilled enough to take over. 
    The Foremen brought it to light because they had just had a batch of guitars rejected by a dealer arrive back the day before and he wanted to know what to do about it.
    The Manager was a really nice guy but he had only management skills and zero practical skills so couldn't explain how to rectify it.
    I picked up a couple of the completed guitars and they were totally unplayable. Pressing any fret down caused a seriously sharp note. 
    The Manager friend left not long after and I don't know if they ever sorted it but I believe, not sure, they are closed now.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71953
    As others have said, this is nothing new with Gibson - the ‘64 335 I used to own had the holes for the stop tail and bridge posts drilled in the wrong place. The bridge post holes were plugged with dowels (clearly visible through the factory finish) and the stop tail holes were covered with a ‘Custom Made’ plate - and a Bigsby was fitted. This was in their ‘Golden Era’....

    What most modern makers (and I include Fender in this) seem to have done, is find better ways of machining parts, to eliminate ‘builder error’. Gibson - for reasons I don’t understand - still set neck angles by hand - hence the level of variation.
    I suspect it was the neck that was fitted wrongly on your 335 too - the bridge and stoptail holes are drilled using a jig, so they should be in the same place every time. This is also why some have a noticeable gap between the neck pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard - the pickup routs are jig-routed (or probably CNC now), but the neck is hand-fitted so its position varies.

    Going back to that J-185, it was definitely the neck joint that was the problem there too - my first thought was that the bridge had been fitted off-centre, but I checked it and it hadn't. Sideways misalignment is much less common than up/down or lengthways though.

    I don’t actually think Gibson’s quality has changed that much over the years - they make vast numbers of guitars and have always let ones out that shouldn’t have been.
    It's this that's the problem - all manufacturing processes produce out-of-tolerance examples. The key is to reject them at an early enough stage for them to be reworked correctly, or to take a deep breath and scrap the finished product if it isn't good enough.

    Apparently one of the jobs Paul Smith still does at the PRS factory is to bandsaw the ones that can't be saved.

    Gibson put a line through the inspection tick-boxes and ship the guitar...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    edited July 2018
    Just to add a bit of balance, the last new Gibson I bought (coming to think of it, the only new Gibson I’ve ever bought) was a 2016 ES Les Paul Alex Lifeson model. 

    The only fault I can find with it is a red mark on the end of the neck, just under the fingerboard edge in front of the neck pickup. Apart from that it’s flawless. 

    No idea where that red mark came from, looks like something has rubbed off from a tool or something. As it’s over the white paint on end grain, it’s not the smoothest finish in that area so I haven’t attempted to remove it. 

    Its only a small mark so it bothers me very little and it’s otherwise a fabulous guitar. 

    You can just see it here:

    https://imgur.com/gallery/h2A4YWI

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
    ICBM said:
    Gibson put a line through the inspection tick-boxes and ship the guitar...

    Indeed

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