Patriotism

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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 692
    Fretwired said:

    Go on .. tell the Adele joke again .... :-)
    I'll tell another...

    Q: How does Adele like her eggs in the morning?
    A: In cake.
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11670
    I wrote a song for Adele once, got rejected though.

    Was called "You left me...but I'm not going to go on about it"
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • bodhibodhi Frets: 1334
    Fretwired said:
    bodhi said:

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
    No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

    However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners.  The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.
    There are lots of different numbers and percentages floating around on the interwebs.

    This Red Cross article puts it at 10%, too.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    My dad used to say that patriotism is OK if it means working for the good of your country, but when it becomes nationalism it can't be right because that is working for the good of your country to the detriment of other countries.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    bodhi said:
    Fretwired said:
    bodhi said:

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
    No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

    However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners.  The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.
    There are lots of different numbers and percentages floating around on the interwebs.

    This Red Cross article puts it at 10%, too.

    That article is poorly worded. The figures seem to be similar to mine in terms of deaths. They claim about 27,000 died in the camps which would make the Boer population 270,000 which is far too small. They also point out, which I'd forgotten, that the Boer War was called the typhoid war as so many civilians (especially in the camps) and soldiers died from the disease.

    I don't think the percentages add up. Official records show that around 27,000 civilians died in British camps and around 20,000 black Africans which was appalling. Whichever way you look at it it was a dark stain on the British Empire and should not be forgotten.





    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 12257
    Im not sure that most patriots could adequately explain their patriotism. Just like the slack jawed racist brexiteers. Now im not saying that everyone that voted for Brexit is a bit thick and racist just that all the thick racist people voted brexit.

    Patriotism never has meant anything to me. Be proud of yourself, not a football team or the piece of Earth you happened to be born on.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    What country does one choose to be patriotic over?
     - the one you are born in
    - the one on the front of your current passport, or your other one
    - the one your birth parents “were” (however you determine that? )
    - the one your adopted parents “were”
    - the one your sperm donor and surrogate mother “were”
    - what your genetics say you came from
    - who you pay your taxes to
    - where you currently live
    - where your second home is
    - the one you are trying to emigrate to
    - the one you are just leaving 
    - the one that will let you play sport for their national team 
    - what you feel like being today


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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    edited July 2018
    hang on, I was adopted?!?

    and any country desperate enough to let me play for their national team is so hard up I'd not want to live there

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24209
    I’m sure most countries would be more than happy to let you pay for their national team, hard up or not.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • I’ve been on this forum for a couple of years and have avoided discussions on politics and nationalism, as I see it as a nice escape from reality; but I now feel like saying something. I am from Wales. My first language is Welsh, as was my parents, grandparents, my wife, children, many friends and the majority of residents where I live. My views are totally shaped by inheriting this ancient language and heritage, which I love deeply. 

    My feelings of patriotism for Wales are influenced by the threat and real possibilty that my culture could dissapear in a generation or two under the tide of British nationslism and anglicisation, be it deliberate or not. I want to stand up and defend my language and culture against this. If it dies in Wales, it’s gone forever. This leads me to having no warm affinity to Britain, or the United Kingdom if Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it’s correctly called, as a state. It’s not personal as I have good English friends. I feel no warmth to GB; I am Welsh. It’s a distinct nation, as is French, Croat or Greek. Perhaps being from a small nation makes is easier to be patriotic without feelings if guilt. I have been reluctant to mention this on the fretboard till now as us welsh speakers are long used to being attacked and put down for speaking our language [gulp] 


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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    swift edit I'm sure no one saw anything.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Or The Good, The Bad, and the Dudley
    They should do Black Country film names for other genres...

    On Tipton Pond...
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    VimFuego said:
    hang on, I was adopted?!?


    @VimFuego we’d been looking for a way to break it to you gently; the good news it turns out you’re related to the Nigerian royal family and for just a small deposit to my account at Indiamoney.org I will be able to get you reunited. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    edited July 2018
    grey_question 
    [ also swift edit, no one noticed]
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 15476
    VimFuego said:
    hang on, I was adopted?!?


    @VimFuego we’d been looking for a way to break it to you gently; the good news it turns out you’re related to the Nigerian royal family and for just a small deposit to my account at Indiamoney.org I will be able to get you reunited. 
    been reading how hard it is to send money overseas, but I'll do my best.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    @MagicPigDetective ; full marks for being proud of your heritage and wanting to preserve it.
    From An Englishman.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • MagicPigDetectiveMagicPigDetective Frets: 2992
    edited July 2018
    @MagicPigDetective ;;; full marks for being proud of your heritage and wanting to preserve it.
    From An Englishman.
    Thanks  @Phil_aka_Pip ;   you’ve warmed the cockles of my heart! 
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  • littlegreenmanlittlegreenman Frets: 4959
    edited July 2018

    I’ve been on this forum for a couple of years and have avoided discussions on politics and nationalism, as I see it as a nice escape from reality; but I now feel like saying something. I am from Wales. My first language is Welsh, as was my parents, grandparents, my wife, children, many friends and the majority of residents where I live. My views are totally shaped by inheriting this ancient language and heritage, which I love deeply. 

    My feelings of patriotism for Wales are influenced by the threat and real possibilty that my culture could dissapear in a generation or two under the tide of British nationslism and anglicisation, be it deliberate or not. I want to stand up and defend my language and culture against this. If it dies in Wales, it’s gone forever. This leads me to having no warm affinity to Britain, or the United Kingdom if Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it’s correctly called, as a state. It’s not personal as I have good English friends. I feel no warmth to GB; I am Welsh. It’s a distinct nation, as is French, Croat or Greek. Perhaps being from a small nation makes is easier to be patriotic without feelings if guilt. I have been reluctant to mention this on the fretboard till now as us welsh speakers are long used to being attacked and put down for speaking our language [gulp] 



    Yn wir. Doethineb'd

    From just across the border.


    littlegreenman < My tunes here...
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited July 2018

    I’ve been on this forum for a couple of years and have avoided discussions on politics and nationalism, as I see it as a nice escape from reality; but I now feel like saying something. I am from Wales. My first language is Welsh, as was my parents, grandparents, my wife, children, many friends and the majority of residents where I live. My views are totally shaped by inheriting this ancient language and heritage, which I love deeply. 

    My feelings of patriotism for Wales are influenced by the threat and real possibilty that my culture could dissapear in a generation or two under the tide of British nationslism and anglicisation, be it deliberate or not. I want to stand up and defend my language and culture against this. If it dies in Wales, it’s gone forever. This leads me to having no warm affinity to Britain, or the United Kingdom if Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it’s correctly called, as a state. It’s not personal as I have good English friends. I feel no warmth to GB; I am Welsh. It’s a distinct nation, as is French, Croat or Greek. Perhaps being from a small nation makes is easier to be patriotic without feelings if guilt. I have been reluctant to mention this on the fretboard till now as us welsh speakers are long used to being attacked and put down for speaking our language [gulp] 


    I don't get this ... my father's family are from Wales, my mother's and my wife's from Scotland and I was born in England. The Welsh have their own parliament committed to protecting the Welsh language and heritage. Do you think the English hordes will pour over the border? If the Welsh language does vanish it has more to do with social media platforms, the internet age and a lack of interest from young people in Wales than the English or British nationalism. I'm old and don't get the age of the millennials - the English language constantly changes and evolves and is now full of jargon I don't understand. The French have tried to fight a rearguard action to protect their language and failed. It's now full of English terms mostly from the USA as used in social media. Language evolves. Things change. Apparently we'll all be speaking Chinglish by 2060. I'll be long dead.

    My Welsh relatives are proud to be Welsh but don't speak the language.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    Fretwired said:

    I’ve been on this forum for a couple of years and have avoided discussions on politics and nationalism, as I see it as a nice escape from reality; but I now feel like saying something. I am from Wales. My first language is Welsh, as was my parents, grandparents, my wife, children, many friends and the majority of residents where I live. My views are totally shaped by inheriting this ancient language and heritage, which I love deeply. 

    My feelings of patriotism for Wales are influenced by the threat and real possibilty that my culture could dissapear in a generation or two under the tide of British nationslism and anglicisation, be it deliberate or not. I want to stand up and defend my language and culture against this. If it dies in Wales, it’s gone forever. This leads me to having no warm affinity to Britain, or the United Kingdom if Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it’s correctly called, as a state. It’s not personal as I have good English friends. I feel no warmth to GB; I am Welsh. It’s a distinct nation, as is French, Croat or Greek. Perhaps being from a small nation makes is easier to be patriotic without feelings if guilt. I have been reluctant to mention this on the fretboard till now as us welsh speakers are long used to being attacked and put down for speaking our language [gulp] 


    I don't get this ... my father's family are from Wales, my mother's and my wife's from Scotland and I was born in England. The Welsh have their own parliament committed to protecting the Welsh language and heritage. Do you think the English hordes will pour over the border? If the Welsh language does vanish it has more to do with social media platforms, the internet age and a lack of interest from young people in Wales than the English or British nationalism. I'm old and don't get the age of the millennials - the English language constantly changes and evolves and is now full of jargon I don't understand. The French have tried to fight a rearguard action to protect their language and failed. It's now full of English terms mostly from the USA as used in social media. Language evolves. Things change. Apparently we'll all be speaking Chinglish by 2060. I'll be long dead.

    My Welsh relatives are proud to be Welsh but don't speak the language.
    I kind of get both sides. I was born and raised in Wales and still live there, both of my parents were Welsh speakers, my mother was a Welsh teacher. 

    Welsh was compulsory in school, all our assemblies were in Welsh but I'm not (or no longer) a Welsh speaker. To me as a teenager the Welsh language was deeply uncool, it was backwards-looking and it was a waste of time and brain power when I could be learning the languages of people with whom I can't communicate in English. 

    I missed the boat by a couple of years, I left school a few years before S4C started, and decades before being a Welsh speaker could help you get a job.

    Every Welsh person knows the history of how successive governments tried to wipe out the language, and that despite that history, non-Welsh speaking Welsh are treated as if it's their own fault the language was forcibly beaten out of their ancestors. But that's no longer the case, if it dies it will be through natural atrophy.

    In a way, the language has held Wales back on the world stage. Everyone knows what being Scottish is, they're excellent at simply Being Scottish around the world and promoting their national brand, but in Wales our resources are spent on something exclusive and parochial which is of little interest to a huge majority of people who were born here, let alone anywhere else. 

    It's sad, but Wales will always be divided by its language. For those who are still steeped in it at home, while shopping or socialising it will be part of their identity and they cannot (and shouldn't have to) imagine life without it, but a majority in Wales simply don't care, or are even hostile to it due to being made to feel like second-class citizens through no fault of their own. 
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