Q418C Roland’s headless build

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  • I was tempted to enter this challenge because I haven't built anything for ages, but building things has landed me with far too many guitars so I thought I'd better leave it.  Then I saw this and "remebered" how much I've always fancied a headless and, you know, it's not that expensive and won't take too long...

    But now I think I should thank you for this reality check.  I think I'll wait until the time is right to get back to the next proper build I have in mind.

    I will, of course, be following along and be suitably envious and wishing I'd done one too by the time you've finished. =)

    Good luck with the return and whatever you do moving forward.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    edited September 2018
    While this is being resolved I've been thinking about the value of buying a kit for a headless guitar project. The parts of the kit which I'll definitely use are the body, neck, neck plate, bridge (well, part of it), and head piece. I might also use the volume and tone knobs, and the 5-way switch. If I were to buy a better quality kit I'd get better quality wood, maybe an Ash body, but I'd still be replacing most of the hardware.

    Economically it would make more sense to source each of the parts individually. The bridges are on eBay for around £30. I've already got several cheap necks, and the wood to make a body. However ...
    WezV said:

    ... don't bin it and build from scratch - make the kit work for you!

    To keep this build on track I’m going to promise myself that, once it’s finished, I can build a second headless guitar without using a kit. 
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591

    Plan B

    After a series of tortuous emails we have agreed that the manufacturer will provide a new bridge, and the retailer will make a sizeable refund to cover the cost of remedial work on neck and body. The refund should come through over night. 

    The supplier hasn’t tried to be difficult, but their understanding of English is limited. So lots of pictures and explanations on my part. It also became clear that they are out of their depth, and don’t understand anything about guitars, or big ticket items. The guitar kit is by far the most expensive thing on their web site.

    ... I saw this and "remembered" how much I've always fancied a headless and, you know, it's not that expensive and won't take too long...

    But now I think I should thank you for this reality check.  

    This situation arose because, knowing I would throw away pickups most of the hardware, I chose a cheap kit. If I’d gone for a more expensive one from a named supplier then I expect that things would have been different. If what you want is a cheap headless then it makes more sense to go for something ready made. Kits aren’t the cheapest option. There are several headless guitars with good reviews. 

    If you really want to make one then I’d be tempted to buy a Telecaster kit, cut the head off, and fit a headpiece and tuner/bridge. Why a Telecaster? It has a nice big flat area behind the bridge where you can fit headless tuners. Previous forum experience is that the Thomann kits are reliable quality, and @FriskyDingo has made a good job of his Gear4music Knoxville kit. Both are half the price of the headless kit. 

    So there is no Plan B at this point. We’re still on plan A.

    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    WezV said:
    It's October.    The build phase has officially started ...
    It hasn’t started here. This month I’m busy with autumn pruning and digging the veg patch. On the guitar side it may be some time before the replacement bridge arrives from China. I’m loth to start working on any part of the kit until that happens. So nothing to see here for a while.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547
    Good job I added that extra month ;)
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  • DrBobDrBob Frets: 2998
    This thread makes me want my Mini V back 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Today my back needed a change from gardening so after an hour’s digging I grabbed some time in the workshop. First off, preparing a safe working environment. Last week I turned a yew bowl, and a dish from hawthorn. Hawthorn is an irritant. Yew is classified as poisonous. I cleared the shavings as I worked, but this morning it on with the dust mask and out with the vacuum to remove any remaining dust.Then a few hours with the air cleanser running to remove the particles I’d filled the air with.

    At the end of the afternoon I spent an hour looking at whether I can convert the Overlord tuners to fixed bridge by replacing the massive casting with a backing plate. 



    Top left is the casting that’s being replaced. Top right mild steel plate which is replacing it. The casting is 4mm thick at this point. A 1.5mm plate would be strong enough, but 3mm means that I won’t have to shorten or replace the original machine screws. 

    You’ll notice it’s blue. I don’t have any engineers blue, so I use blue wood dye. That same dye may appear on the body later on.

    This is where it’s going to fit on the guitar.



    You can see In earlier pictures that the cavity isn’t square, or even regular. It looks as if it was routed freehand with a blunt bit. My current plan is to square up the hole, and fill it with a block of wood. Then screw the tuner plate to the wood. Actually I might bolt it down using the threaded inserts which I bought them for body mounting the pickups.


    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    The “kit” is just about here. At the top are the parts from the original kit which I expect to use. The five way switch will stay if it works cleanly. If not the it will get swapped. The strings will get used during initial setup, and then replaced.

    In the middle are the parts I’m adding:
    • Stonetone single coils, made by @TheGuitarWeasel. I think I bought these from @richardhomer, but it’s so long ago that I’ve forgotten.
    • M3 inserts.
    • Straplocks, jack socket, pots, and a Solar Flare tappable humbucker from @Alegree’s recent sale.
    • Roller bridge and curved neck plate from Blackdog Music.
    • Not shown - Jescar fretwire. 
    At the bottom are the parts which will be scrapped. I might keep the jack socket and neck plate. Everything else is not good enough to be passed on, even for free.



    This is what it will look like. I can live with zebra pickups, but I’m thinking of staining the body face blue, and leaving the back and sides natural.


    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Received wisdom is that the bridge requires a break angle of about 15 +3 degrees. I’ve drawn up a diagram to check distances and angles. This showed that the tunematic roller bridge needs to be inset by 5mm to avoid shimming the neck. 5mm buries the bridge pillars, and puts the bottom of the bridge flat against the guitar top. That’s the theory. We’ll see how it turns out, and I’ll adjust bridge and/or neck at build time.

    I checked my calculations with a test rig:



    Another reason for the test rig was to check how the tuners worked under string tension. They’re stiff because they use a standard M3 thread. They really need a finer thread. They are not consistently stiff as they rotate. That’s because the tuners aren’t squarely aligned with the screw thread.

    Then looked what happened. The plastic washer broke. I don’t know whether it’s a consequence of the uneven pressure, poor design, or cheap materials. Either way another challenge.



    I like challenges. It beats crosswords and sudoku.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • Andyjr1515Andyjr1515 Frets: 3127
    Wow - that's a lot of fixes, @Roland !   Makes for a fascinating read, though :)  Great detailed photos too!
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    edited October 2018
    This build looks challenging! You must have the patience of a saint to knock that lot up into something workable. I’d be having a beer, and small bonfire, and a Section 75 chargeback
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Yeah, there’s a lot to do. Basically it’s a not a kit. It’s a box of substandard parts which don’t fit together. I’m still working on it because I like solving problems. If I were doing this as an easy way to build a guitar then I’d have sent it back last month. That can still happen if the supplier doesn’t live up to the agreement, and replace the bridge. 


    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    The replacement bridge has arrived from China. At first glance it looks OK. No rust, and the tuners all unscrew and extend correctly. One of them wobbles a bit, but I should be able to scavenge a working set.

    So it’s game on, and I can start working on the rest of the kit.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27586
    Probably a bit late, but you could replace any plastic washers in the tuner arrangement with some small thrust bearings?
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Nice idea, but I can’t imagine finding bearings which are this small. Unless I splay the tuners the outside diameter has to be less than string separation.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27586
    Doh - good point. I think for 3mm centres the smallest will be 8mm outside diameter. Probably just too big?
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Roland said:
    I like solving problems. 
    What do you suggest should happen in with Iran?
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Sporky said:
    Doh - good point. I think for 3mm centres the smallest will be 8mm outside diameter. Probably just too big?
    And expensive. The bearings I’ve seen are more than £10 each.

    Thread angle is probably a simpler solution. The Overlord tuner uses an M3 thread, presumably because it’s an industry standard. M3 is 40 turns per inch. A shallower thread would turn more easily. The shallowest I could find is 60 tpi. However it’s 3/16” diameter, so the tuner slugs would need a 10mm by 10mm cross section. The slugs in the Overlord are 5mm by 10mm.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    A bit more engineering. Those M3 threaded inserts I bought are a nice idea, but difficult to install. The external wood screw is single thread, and difficult to drive straight. Putting enough force on the screwdriver to hold it straight causes a burr on the internal thread, which means that the M3 screw can’t get started. 

    I can think of three solutions. 
    1. Put them in from the back, which I don’t fancy because they’ll be visible.
    2. Ream out the first 1mm of the internal thread so that the screwdriver doesn’t cause a burr.
    3. Make a tool with a spigot which holds the insert in place.
    Or of course I could not use them.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • m_cm_c Frets: 1211
    Screw in a M3 grubscrew past the slot, install the insert, then remove the grubscrew which should clean up an burrs, unless they're major burrs in which case you're back to square one. Alternative approach would be to run a M3 tap through once installed, but that risks not picking up the correct thread and stripping the insert.
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