Backdoor ii-V(jazz theory)

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BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
edited October 2018 in Theory
Just learned a jazz concept called the backdoor ii-V (edit: not ii-V-I) . I haven't had a chance to try it out but I love it already. Time to try it everywhere! 


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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited October 2018
    I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E 

    Absolutely gorgeous. 

    The tritone sub is also so cool. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    That is lovely.
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  • matt1973matt1973 Frets: 385
    Seen this little progression quite a lot but never had explained in that way. Thanks for posting.
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  • Nice. Has this any relationship to the chord progression used by Focus at the end of Sylvia? If you put that piece in C the last 3 chords would be Ab Bb C. F-7 is related to Ab, Bb7 is a flavoured Bb, C is where you end up.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited October 2018
    Edit - not especially, though the iv (f MINOR BTW) is related to the bVI as you say, but the progressions sound very different because the backdoor ii-V tricks you into thinking it’s going to resolve to the Eb, whereas the Focus song tricks you into thinking it’s going to finish on the c minor.

    The bVI bVII I cadence is a borrowed minor progression that then resolves to the major tonic. It’s like a Tierce de Picardie, except as the whole song is in major not minor, it’s the b6 and b7 that are the anomolies, not the tonic.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited October 2018
    That bVII chord is excellent. It can either replace the iv chord in a IV-vi-I (as in Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nipping at your NOSE), or happen after a iv chord (as in the backdoor ii-V). 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • VeganicVeganic Frets: 673
    Pedant alert: The vid calls it a backdoor ii-V.  It never gets to that I but goes up to a completely different I.  

    I have questions but I will have a play first. 
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  • @viz thanks :)

    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    viz said:
    I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E 

    Absolutely gorgeous. 

    The tritone sub is also so cool. 

    Tritone sub is great device, and opens plenty of doors.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    jpfamps said:
    viz said:
    I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E 

    Absolutely gorgeous. 

    The tritone sub is also so cool. 

    Tritone sub is great device, and opens plenty of doors.
    I am on a train but am trying to audibleise (is that a word) what a back-door ii-V sounds like with a tritone sub. It’d be fm-E7-C. Sounds ok to my inner ear; anyone got a guitar to hand?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    viz said:
    jpfamps said:
    viz said:
    I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E 

    Absolutely gorgeous. 

    The tritone sub is also so cool. 

    Tritone sub is great device, and opens plenty of doors.
    I am on a train but am trying to audibleise (is that a word) what a back-door ii-V sounds like with a tritone sub. It’d be fm-E7-C. Sounds ok to my inner ear; anyone got a guitar to hand?
    Sounds cool to be (on a guitar!!).
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    jpfamps said:
    viz said:
    jpfamps said:
    viz said:
    I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E 

    Absolutely gorgeous. 

    The tritone sub is also so cool. 

    Tritone sub is great device, and opens plenty of doors.
    I am on a train but am trying to audibleise (is that a word) what a back-door ii-V sounds like with a tritone sub. It’d be fm-E7-C. Sounds ok to my inner ear; anyone got a guitar to hand?
    Sounds cool to be (on a guitar!!).
    I worry that the E note itself will sound a bit static in the move from the E7 to the C major. Good banter
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    viz said:
    I worry that the E note itself will sound a bit static in the move from the E7 to the C major. Good banter
    The tritone sub sounds good! You're right that E sounds static if u keep it as a top note when moving from E7 to C. I find moving the top note to G helps create movement to keep it interesting.

    I've only just had time to play some guitar and it seems that the backdoor V (bVII) does not necessarily need to take up a dominant quality to sound good. a Maj7 seems to work well too. 

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited October 2018
    Branshen said:
    viz said:
    I worry that the E note itself will sound a bit static in the move from the E7 to the C major. Good banter
    The tritone sub sounds good! You're right that E sounds static if u keep it as a top note when moving from E7 to C. I find moving the top note to G helps create movement to keep it interesting.

    I've only just had time to play some guitar and it seems that the backdoor V (bVII) does not necessarily need to take up a dominant quality to sound good. a Maj7 seems to work well too. 

    Yes, makes it more mixolydian than mixo b6. I prefer the bVII7 meself because the iv chord is supposed to be minor, and the bVII chord therefore “should” itself have a flattened 7th, but both are nice - the maj7 one is like sprinkling some thyme on top; the flat 7 is like dousing it in gravy. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited October 2018
    Veganic said:
    Pedant alert: The vid calls it a backdoor ii-V.  It never gets to that I but goes up to a completely different I.  

    I have questions but I will have a play first. 

    If I understand this correctly (and I might not ), the I chord still stands but it's arrived at via iv - bVII.

    For example (as @viz said earlier) in the key of C, that's fm  Bb  C.  The home key in this example is still C.

    I find the term "backdoor ii V I" a bit confusing, but I suppose that's because there's a movement of a 4th, in going from ii to V and also going from iv to bVII.

    Anyway it's good to have a label for the sound of that chord movement so I can recognise it when I hear it. It's immediately recognisable in Free by Deniece Williams.

    It's not a competition.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited October 2018
    Veganic said:
    Pedant alert: The vid calls it a backdoor ii-V.  It never gets to that I but goes up to a completely different I.  

    I have questions but I will have a play first. 

    If I understand this correctly (and I might not ), the I chord still stands but it's arrived at via iv - bVII.

    For example (as @viz said earlier) in the key of C, that's fm  Bb  C.  The home key in this example is still C.

    I find the term "backdoor ii V I" a bit confusing, but I suppose that's because there's a movement of a 4th, in going from ii to V and also going from iv to bVII.

    Anyway it's good to have a label for the sound of that chord movement so I can recognise it when I hear it. It's immediately recognisable in Free by Deniece Williams.

    Yep, that’s why it’s called a backdoor 25, not a backdoor 251. As you rightly say, it’s not a ii-V-I, it’s a iv-bVII-I, but the ii-V and the iv-bVII have the same interval, so it sounds like it’s going to be a ii-V-I, but then suddenly isn’t. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    Ok. Edited original post so I won't further misinform anyone. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Reminds me of some advice I was given at music school by a tutor:

    Knowledge is understanding you can ii V any chord.
    Wisdom is knowing that you don't always need to.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    The 5 chord chord works up in minor 3rds so could choose either or all of them for different extensions on the 7th chord ...same way as diminished really but using 7ths
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Barney said:
    The 5 chord chord works up in minor 3rds so could choose either or all of them for different extensions on the 7th chord ...same way as diminished really but using 7ths
    Sounds cool - what do you mean exactly?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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