Backdoor ii-V(jazz theory)

jpfamps · October 2018

viz said:

jpfamps said:

viz said:

jpfamps said:

viz said:

I love it. For that bVII chord try playing a 13 chord, in other words if you’re resolving to C, you’re playing fm-Bb-C; and the Bb chord would be (in ascending order) Bb, Ab, D, G. And the melody would be (starting from the top G) G -> F -> E

Absolutely gorgeous.

The tritone sub is also so cool.

Tritone sub is great device, and opens plenty of doors.

I am on a train but am trying to audibleise (is that a word) what a back-door ii-V sounds like with a tritone sub. It’d be fm-E7-C. Sounds ok to my inner ear; anyone got a guitar to hand?

Sounds cool to be (on a guitar!!).

I worry that the E note itself will sound a bit static in the move from the E7 to the C major. Good banter

E7 to Am in the key of C is a very common change in Gospel music (eg If I Can Dream by Elvis), and of course that will have a static E in it too.

That change subs nicely for the classic C, G/B, Am change in much popular music, and preserves the C B A bass line as you can play the E7 as an E7/B.

Barney · October 2018

viz said:

Barney said:

The 5 chord chord works up in minor 3rds so could choose either or all of them for different extensions on the 7th chord ...same way as diminished really but using 7ths

Sounds cool - what do you mean exactly?

So 251 in key of C ..try G7..Bb7...Db7..or E7...or combinations of them ..or just on there own

And as lead lines as well

viz · October 2018

Barney said:

viz said:

Barney said:

The 5 chord chord works up in minor 3rds so could choose either or all of them for different extensions on the 7th chord ...same way as diminished really but using 7ths

Sounds cool - what do you mean exactly?

So 251 in key of C ..try G7..Bb7...Db7..or E7...or combinations of them ..or just on there own
And as lead lines as well

Interesting - I normally use major 3rds, so in C I’d play Gdim6, Baug5 or Ebdim6

Barney · October 2018

viz said:

Barney said:

viz said:

Barney said:

The 5 chord chord works up in minor 3rds so could choose either or all of them for different extensions on the 7th chord ...same way as diminished really but using 7ths

Sounds cool - what do you mean exactly?

So 251 in key of C ..try G7..Bb7...Db7..or E7...or combinations of them ..or just on there own
And as lead lines as well

Interesting - I normally use major 3rds, so in C I’d play Gdim6, Baug5 or Ebdim6

It's good to convert to minor as well..so Bb7 woulnd become Fm..D7 ..Am and E7..B min..you have to get good resolution to the 1 chord ..

bigjon · October 2018

My favourite backdoor ii-V occurs in Allan Holdsworth's version of Isotope, a 12-bar in C which has the chords F7 Bb7 C in bars 5 6 7.

In Allan's guitar solo which starts at 3:45 he plays lots of interesting lines over the Bb7 chord in bar 6, which can be analysed in any of 4 ways -

For example, in the 2nd chorus starting at 3:59 he plays 12 triplet quavers over the Bb7 chord on the top two strings

8-13-11--------------11------------------------------10

--------------13-12----------13-12-11-10-11-------

The notes are

C F Eb C B Eb C B Bb A Bb D

I'm sure Allan is thinking over the home key of C at this point -

Analysis 1 over C: 1-4-b3-1-7-b3-1-7-b7-6-b7-2, a mix of C minor pentatonic and C melodic minor.

But the line makes good sense over the F IV chord which is governing this 2-bar section -

Analysis 2 over F: 5-1-b7-5-b5-b7-5-b5-4-3-4-6, starting in F Lydian dominant and ending in F mixolydian over an implied F7 chord continued from the bar before.

I think the least satisfying analysis is that over the actual chord played. Bb7! -

Analysis 3 over Bb: 2-5-4-2-b2-4-2-b2-1-7-1-3, a Bb major scale with a prominent added b2 which gives an altered dominant flavour implying motion towards a non-existent Eb chord in bar 7.

But the pièce de resistance, and the reason why I love backdoor ii-Vs, is the analysis also works a treat over an imagined G7alt chord as a V chord leading back into the key of C - the notes Bb D F and Ab in the Bb7 chord being treated as substitutes for a #9 5 7 b9 in G7alt (G7#9-b9)!!!

Analysis 4 over G: 4-b7-b6-4-3-b6-4-3-b3-2-b3-5, a beautiful Mixolydian b6 line in the first half with the repeated 4-3 resolution followed by Dorian for the last 4 notes.

Well done if you've stuck with me thus far, this must be my most pretentious and spoddy post ever!!! :-)

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Backdoor ii-V(jazz theory)

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