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The recording process - how do you go about it?

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  • Haych said:
    Haych said:
    Thanks all. Keep it coming, I’m learning a lot already. 

    My latset snag to the creative process is amp sims. I’ve tried everything from the built in sims that come with Logic to Helix Native (free trial) and they’re all sh!t. 

    Gonna have to invest in some new hardware I reckon. 
    Are you sure they're all shit? Or are you expecting to hear a guitar amp, when you're actually hearing a guitar amp with a mic in front?

    That's the classic mistake most folk make. The quality of the cab sim or impulse you're using is hugely more important than the amp sim.
    Well that’s a good enough question I suppose. As for what I’m expecting; a usable tone to record with. Clean tones lack any depth and dirty tones all seem to sound like a fart in a bubble-bath, to varying degrees. 

    The best sounds I’ve recorded (the traditional method excluded) were from a Yamaha THR10. 

    So im thinking another hardware modeller might do a better job, or maybe a load box type thing with simulated Di. 
    See, this is exactly something I struggled with for a long time; a good tone for a mix is a very, very different beast from a good tone when you're sat in the room with your amp.

    My advice to you would be to ignore the tone for now, and just go with something that helps get your ideas down. However, make sure you also record a DI of the guitar on a separate track, so you can go back and re-amp it later (with a plugin, or a hardware unit, or through a real amp). It's often the case that when you separate the tone from the playing, you start to realise that it's better than you thought. Also, once you put something in a mix, you'll often find that stuff you thought was making it sound awful is actually helping.

    For example, I used to try to avoid that fizz on top of my guitar tones that you often get from putting a mic close in front of a speaker (and thus when using similar impulses). That made the guitars in my mixes sound muddy and generally "dead", but because I was so obsessed with getting a good guitar tone in isolation (ie "a good guitar tone for demos"), I was totally oblivious to the fact that I was actually removing all the frequencies which bring the guitars to life.

    Another mistake is putting too much low-end in the guitars, which again makes guitars sound great on their own, but is just shit for a mix (too many low-frequency sources turns your mix to mush).
    <space for hire>
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    This is all good stuff, a big problem we all have, is too much choice. The track I put up is using 2 guitars--strat with single coils, and strat with JB humbucker---both going through same set of amp sims and IR, and the reason I have to get these things bounced is to be able to hear whats happening in the real world.
    I'm using Lepou's version of a Marshall, and the Ignite IR host, the impulses have a huge effect, and I found the 7 deadly sins pack online--which is huge. I am trying to decide how they all sound, but I stick a 57 on one cab, and a expensive sounding condensor on the other ( stereo IR VST), I seriously think it doesnt really matter what you use, with eq and reverb you can get there with anything--its all trial and error, which is why I am trying to get a template for the basic stuff in place--where I can try and make good decisions in the mix. There is no magic thing that will give the sound you want--you have to make it with what you've got.
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    And dont get me started on monitoring, we've only been talking about getting the sound in up to this point, making decisions is based on what we hear--and that is another rabbit hole.
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  • I've tried so many different guitar options, and, honestly, the very best outcomes I've got have just been using the line out of my Katana straight into the audio interface. All effects already applied, including reverbs and delay. *shrug* 

    My Trading Feedback    |    You Bring The Band

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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    I said the same thing on another thread about the Boss Micro BR, stuff i recorded on that years ago still sounds fine to my old ears, pick something and work with it--stop chasing a 'better' option, a DI is a safety net really.
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    Righto, I seem to be getting somewhere with the guitar tones.  Please be kind, this is rough as and I've only heard it through my headphones so have no idea what it'll sound like on anything else:


    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • Sounds lovely, @Haych, how did you record it?
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    Sounds lovely, @Haych, how did you record it?
    Thanks, you’re too kind. It was all done in Logic Pro X using the built in amp sims. Helix Native isn’t playing nice with Logic at the moment so I’ve had to revert to Apple’s amp builder thing.

    I’d like to persevere with Helix but whether I’ll fix the problem (Logic hangs on startup with Helix installed) in the 15 day trial period is doubtful. 

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    sounds good to me, nothing wrong there, just to say, when we mix-we will tend to be highlighting frequencies that are lacking in our monitors / headphones. I'm listening through a Laptop, so what I hear might not be what you intend-which is why I use soundcloud as an easy way to try things out through other platforms.
    Headphones are another area that can create problems, the acoustic imaging is very exaggerated and things can sound a bit weird played back through speakers, and unless they are good mixing headphones ( ie expensive) there will not be enough detail to allow the frequencies to be balanced.
    The more mixing you do, with the same equipment, you will learn how a sound translates across different monitors, just by experience, and I find it is worth going back to old mixes to see where things have improved--they will, it just takes practice, and knowing what you want to achieve.
    Carry on  doing what you are doing--- nothing is ever really finished anyway.
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  • Haych said:
    Sounds lovely, @Haych, how did you record it?
    Thanks, you’re too kind. It was all done in Logic Pro X using the built in amp sims. Helix Native isn’t playing nice with Logic at the moment so I’ve had to revert to Apple’s amp builder thing.

    I’d like to persevere with Helix but whether I’ll fix the problem (Logic hangs on startup with Helix installed) in the 15 day trial period is doubtful. 
    Helix Native caused me no end of grief too. You're not alone there! I ended up not purchasing the full licence and am likely missing out, but am really enjoying the other plugins I use anyway.
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    andy_k said:
    sounds good to me, nothing wrong there, just to say, when we mix-we will tend to be highlighting frequencies that are lacking in our monitors / headphones. I'm listening through a Laptop, so what I hear might not be what you intend-which is why I use soundcloud as an easy way to try things out through other platforms.
    Headphones are another area that can create problems, the acoustic imaging is very exaggerated and things can sound a bit weird played back through speakers, and unless they are good mixing headphones ( ie expensive) there will not be enough detail to allow the frequencies to be balanced.
    The more mixing you do, with the same equipment, you will learn how a sound translates across different monitors, just by experience, and I find it is worth going back to old mixes to see where things have improved--they will, it just takes practice, and knowing what you want to achieve.
    Carry on  doing what you are doing--- nothing is ever really finished anyway.
    Thank you mate.  I haven't done any mixing yet, per se.  Before I bounced it to SoundCloud I bounced it into iTunes with all the same settings.  I don't know why but listening to it in iTunes the bass is much more pronounced than the SoundCloud version.

    I don't really enjoy using headphones, although I guess unless I'm sat in an acoustically treated room then they're probably more 'accurate', for want of a better word, than nearfield monitors.

    My headphones are quite expensive but their intended use certainly isn't mixing so they're probably not the best tool.

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594

    Helix Native caused me no end of grief too. You're not alone there! I ended up not purchasing the full licence and am likely missing out, but am really enjoying the other plugins I use anyway.
    Ah, so I'm not alone then.  I'm quite glad, in a way, that the issues I'm having aren't isolate to just me.  I've had to remove the plugin file from $/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/Components or Logic just won't start!

    The internet doesn't seem to offer anything on the issue either, but then it is quite new I suppose.

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • I find stuff sounds different on SoundCloud to when I listen to the same song on my phone via an mp3 or wave, which is quite annoying as you then don't know what other people are hearing compared to what you heard before you uploaded it
    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
    soundcloud.com/thecolourbox-1
    youtube.com/@TheColourboxMusic
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  • On the subject of headphones...this plugin's supposed to be pretty good at compensating for the immediacy of using cans as opposed to a well-treated room and good monitors:

    https://goodhertz.co/canopener-studio?fbclid=IwAR0V1Nmhm01AfLCSPUR5wNIepTJe_oWFM6wzp6dhFDw3jJi_5Q4Wxfi7xO4

    I haven't tried it myself yet due to lack of time, but it could be useful and gets good reviews...
    <space for hire>
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  • spark240spark240 Frets: 2073
    Haych said:
    Righto, I seem to be getting somewhere with the guitar tones.  Please be kind, this is rough as and I've only heard it through my headphones so have no idea what it'll sound like on anything else:


    Sounds fine on iPad, about what I would expect, I’ll listen on monitors later...I wouldn’t get too hung up on keeping a perfect mix as the track progresses, you will have to revisit all of it when it’s complete anyhow 


    Mac Mini M1
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    Reddit r/newmusicreview 
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    This is why mastering is a 'Dark art', the conversion to MP3 will affect the mix, Itunes will affect the mix with normalisation if it is turned on, and Soundcloud has its own rules-as do they all, all different.
    I have been using a website, called loudness penalty report, which tells you, and shows you the effect each of the main streaming sites have on your track.
    Our mixes have to 'fit' a very specific set of criteria for them to sound 'right', most of what we like is in the mid-range, so that area gets pretty congested--which is why good mixes tend to have carefully crafted eq on all the mid-range sound. I look at my own stuff with SPAN on the output, frequency analyser, which lets you see each instruments range, surprising how much bass and middle there is in a cymbal, which can be cut out--leaving room for the stuff that needs it.
    Its hard to make good mixing decisions based on MP3 and I tunes, because the conversion is a bit vague, but its useful to compare these things. 
    I did a 5 min track yesterday, that Reaper converted to a 320bit MP3, which came out at about 12 mb, which I thought was a bit big, but I think it was because I chose one of the more accurate conversions-hence a larger file.
    Also, when converting to Mp3, you need to allow for some distortion that is introduced, so leave more headroom on the mix bus-at least -3DB.
    all good fun anyway.
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    Sorry, I didnt mean to ramble off topic, I try and treat my mixing as a way of creating a 'canvass' to allow my guitar to fit well, but when you look at the whole mix-you see there isn't much room to show off our meticulously crafted tone. and things like MP3 and streaming tend to squash things even further.
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  • On the subject of headphones...this plugin's supposed to be pretty good at compensating for the immediacy of using cans as opposed to a well-treated room and good monitors:

    https://goodhertz.co/canopener-studio?fbclid=IwAR0V1Nmhm01AfLCSPUR5wNIepTJe_oWFM6wzp6dhFDw3jJi_5Q4Wxfi7xO4

    I haven't tried it myself yet due to lack of time, but it could be useful and gets good reviews...
    I have it, I think it’s good. I’ve only used it with open back headphones, but it helps with my DT880s as otherwise it can be hard to balance the centre against the sides.
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    My preference is to record keyboards first, either one long take or do it in a few pieces. I see keys as the backbone of the rhythm tracks that I do and I like to adjust the ebb and flow of timing. After that I drum along to the backing track using midi drums, which allows me to fix the odd dodgy note. Either rhythm guitars or Bass next and then the lead guitar (I only do instrumentals) is usually a single live take whilst videoing, so I can use it on my YouTube channel. 
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    axisus said:
    My preference is to record keyboards first, either one long take or do it in a few pieces. I see keys as the backbone of the rhythm tracks that I do and I like to adjust the ebb and flow of timing. After that I drum along to the backing track using midi drums, which allows me to fix the odd dodgy note. Either rhythm guitars or Bass next and then the lead guitar (I only do instrumentals) is usually a single live take whilst videoing, so I can use it on my YouTube channel. 
    @axisus ;PM me your YouTube channel please bud, I'd be interested in taking a look?

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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