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Global warming - how else can these signs be explained?

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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27573
    Yeah, but [insert irrelevant made-up nonsense about bees or ancient Mesopotania or triffids or something] 
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Replies to threads about climate change depress me. 

    Scientists pretty much unanimously agree it’s real but joe bloggs knows better.  

    and Trump agrees with Bloggs
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    edited November 2018
    We know that:

    1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
    2) Man-made CO2 production has rocketed since the Industrial Revolution
    3) Atmospheric CO2 has increased since the Industrial Revolution
    4) Global temperatures have increased since the Industrial Revolution

    Maybe there is no link at all between any of that, and it is all a huge coincidence. But we also know that the Sun's warming cycles don't correlate either.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited November 2018
    The problem with the argument is that whether or not global warming is true, whether or not its being caused by man the general populace at large don't believe it. I'd change the argument to effect change - polluted air and water (London is appalling at times) plastics in the oceans killing life and polluting the oceans, intensive farming leading to lifeless baron wastelands (government report on the effect of EU CAP rules on the English countryside).  Ill health and cancers rising, drugs becoming less effective and viruses adapt ... go onto Facebook and see the reaction from people when they see a turtle trapped in plastic waste. Channel that shock and rage into getting change.

    Humanity needs to change to stop polluting the planet and adopt sustainable strategies to generate power, grow food and manage the planets resources so our kids and their kids can have a nice environment in which to grow up.

    Unfortunately, there are vested interests manipulating public opinion and governments across the globe.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • DougDoug Frets: 172
    lonestar said:
    Rocker said:
    Our roses are still in bloom, note it is well into November
    A lot of Summer bedding plants are still flowering.
    I noticed a cowslip flowering a few days ago. These usually flower in late Spring.
    On our way into town yesterday, my wife and I saw a cherry tree in full flower.
    Last week a pair of sparrows were observed 'doing up' their nest under the boiler house roof.
    Brexit.
    Or Trump, or could be Russia. ;)
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 2268
    quarky said:
    We know that:

    1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
    2) Man-made CO2 production has rocketed since the Industrial Revolution
    3) Atmospheric CO2 has increased since the Industrial Revolution
    4) Global temperatures have increased since the Industrial Revolution

    Maybe there is no link at all between any of that, and it is all a huge coincidence. But we also know that the Sun's warming cycles don't correlate either.
    5) C02 is easy to measure and tax.
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    Garthy said:
    quarky said:
    We know that:

    1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
    2) Man-made CO2 production has rocketed since the Industrial Revolution
    3) Atmospheric CO2 has increased since the Industrial Revolution
    4) Global temperatures have increased since the Industrial Revolution

    Maybe there is no link at all between any of that, and it is all a huge coincidence. But we also know that the Sun's warming cycles don't correlate either.
    5) C02 is easy to measure and tax.
    There are easier ways to raise tax revenue than forming a conspiracy with 99% of the world's scientists

    I read the other day, the one thing conspiracy theorists have in common is that they have never worked as project managers :-)
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  • ICBM said:

    the question is whether human activity is responsible, if so then wholly or only partly, and if partly then how much.

    That question is utterly irrelevant. The real questions are:

    1 - What level of warming can humankind tolerate before we see a precipitous drop in population?

    2 - What can we do to prevent that happening?

    Seriously...we've basically proven ourselves to be at least partially capable of altering the climate, and incredibly adept at altering our environment to suit our continued survival. We spend far too much time thinking about how we should avoid doing those things, and not enough considering the idea that we should artificially force the environment into a shape that benefits us. In fact, doing those things will likely benefit a lot of other species as well, certainly more than leaving it alone at this point; we're already well beyond the point where catastrophic runaway warming is preventable by simply not doing things.

    We need to be actively doing something.
    <space for hire>
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  • “What if it’s not caused by greens house gases and we make a better world for nothing?”

    At this point, climate change deniers can seriously just fuck off. It always tends to be older people (40+) who will be dead before it becomes a serious problem - and it WILL become a serious problem for their kids and grandkids. If we have a chance to reverse it or at least reduce the impact then we would obviously be insane not to do so. This isn’t about whether it’s easy to introduce carbon taxes.

    The selfishness and shortsightedness of the individual human astounds me sometimes.
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • siremoonsiremoon Frets: 1524
    edited November 2018
    It appears that the figures show there is a change to climate although those of us of a certain age can remember extreme summers, winters, floods, gales etc, and there are others from further back that are well documented.  Was anyone really measuring emissions in the 50s when virtually every building in the country was pouring the products of solid fuel combustion into the atmosphere and in London you literally couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you during the smog?  Is London really worse now than then?  Was this summer really more extreme than that of 1976?  (My memory of the latter says not noticeably).  The winters of 1947/8 and 1962/3 anyone?  How about snow in Buxton in June 1975?  1987 Hurricane?  Blah blah blah.  Extreme weather events have happened throughout history, it seems to me that they just attract more comment now.

    Statistical trends can be a useful indicator to things providing that they are used in context.  We seem to have two effects over the time since records began - more CO2 and detectable changes to average climate parameters - and a body of opinion that believes the former to be a cause.  The problem as I see it is that we are now able to measure things more precisely and yet we make comparisons with the more crudely gathered measurements of days gone by, and, "since records began" doesn't cover the entire history of human activity and is miniscule in planetary terms. 

    I don't dispute there are measurable changes I'm merely agnostic as to the cause. 
    “He is like a man with a fork in a world of soup.” - Noel Gallagher
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  • @digitalscream   why would a "precipitous drop in population" be such a bad thing? (apart from the obvious suffering of people while they are dying or losing loved ones) ...

    The Black Death European Tour 1348-49 took out lots of people but the result was higer wages and a better standard of living for the survivors
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11670
    I was chatting to another dad in the playground at my daughter's school. He asked what I do.
    "I'm a scientist"
    "Cool. I hope you don't work on that climate change nonsense*. It's all a hoax & part off a natural cycle" 
    "REALLY"
    "yeah. Complete hoax, no evidence. Nothing will convince me otherwise" .
    I thought he was joking, realised he wasn't & had to make my excuses and walk away**. 



    The evidence is compelling plus virtually all the contradictory papers have been debunked. 

    This page is quite nice in illustrating what we're seeing, but either you'll believe the evidence & research by scientists or you won't. No one needs to convince you it's happening for it to continue to happen. 
    https://www.popsci.com/xkcd-earth-average-temperature-timeline

    *Yes. I work on climate change.
    Yes. I believe it's real.
    Yes. I'm worried about the world we're creating & leaving for our children. 

    ** And as I don't do internet arguements, I'll do the same here. 
    I was going to link to that same chart.

    We have had about ten replies in here of "I know the global scientific consensus is that climate change is a massive problem, but it means changes I won't like, and I'm old and can't cope with change, so fuck it"

    What if all the people who are trained and employed to study these things know more than an internet commenter does?
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • siremoon said:

    I don't dispute there are measurable changes I'm merely agnostic as to the cause. 
    But even if we aren't 100% sure of the cause of the warming, wouldn't you rather have less gross exhaust fumes and cheap, clean renewable energy *anyway*, though?
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 2204
    Must. Stay. Calm.

    I thought we tFBers had the intelligence not to get suckered by climate alarmists into believing the climate change/global warming scam.
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  • fandango said:
    Must. Stay. Calm.

    I thought we tFBers had the intelligence not to get suckered by climate alarmists into believing the climate change/global warming scam.
    By "climate alarmists", do you mean, "literally 99% of the entire scientific community"? 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    digitalscream said:

    That question is utterly irrelevant.
    It’s not irrelevant if you want to know the cause. I agree that it doesn’t affect what we should be doing, regardless of the answer.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    roberty said:
    Garthy said:
    quarky said:
    We know that:

    1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
    2) Man-made CO2 production has rocketed since the Industrial Revolution
    3) Atmospheric CO2 has increased since the Industrial Revolution
    4) Global temperatures have increased since the Industrial Revolution

    Maybe there is no link at all between any of that, and it is all a huge coincidence. But we also know that the Sun's warming cycles don't correlate either.
    5) C02 is easy to measure and tax.
    There are easier ways to raise tax revenue than forming a conspiracy with 99% of the world's scientists

    I read the other day, the one thing conspiracy theorists have in common is that they have never worked as project managers :-)
    Yeah I have never understood that. Why would 90%+ of the world's climate scientists, and the vast majority of Governments go though such a massive and risky conspiracy to raise what is relatively a pittance in tax. It makes no sense at all. And how would you keep such an enormous conspiracy secret?
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  • completely agree that we need to do anything we can to act. As has been said, worst case scenario: we stop wasting finite resources and leave a better, cleaner world. Be nice if printer manufacturers and equipment makers in general would stop making stuff so disposable, or at least easier to recycle.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601


    At this point, climate change deniers can seriously just fuck off.
    Great comment - don't agree with me then I'm shutting down the debate. When I was at school in the 60's we were heading for an ice age. Scientists with lots of figures and charts. The only voice you now hear in the press is the 'man made climate' lobby. Man probably is affecting the climate, but there are other factors.

    Pop over to NASA and they're beginning to understand the effect the Sun and it cycles are having on our climate. NASA has installed an instrument on the International Space Station to monitor radiation from the Sun and under its cycles.

    “Knowing the Sun’s behaviour and knowing how Earth’s atmosphere responds to the Sun is even more important now because of all the different factors that affect climate change. We need to understand how all of these interact on Earth’s system,” - NASA.



    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11670
    Fretwired said:
    When I was at school in the 60's we were heading for an ice age. Scientists with lots of figures and charts. The only voice you now hear in the press is the 'man made climate' lobby. Man probably is affecting the climate, but there are other factors.
    Well we can only do things about the man-made factors, so why not focus on those?

    I've never sat in a meeting where someone has said "right we have a problem, some factors we can mitigate, some we can't so let's do fuck all"

    That might have been what they did, to be fair, but it's rarely what is said in a sane context.
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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