What is the point in Modes?

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I just don't get it. Apparently, Phrygian Mode is different to Mixolydian Mode or Ionian Mode or .....  But they all use the same notes! So what gives?
   Don't misunderstand, I believe I know what the various modes are, i.e. simply playing the same 7 (or 8) notes in the same order but starting on a different one. My question is why? i.e. what is the point? Since there's so many people referring to these modes I'm assuming there is a point, I'd like to know what I'm missing.
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Context. The modes relate to the key you are in and gives a particular flavour.

    For example, David Gilmour uses Dorian quite a lot and that gives his playing a particular accent. 
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  • BellycasterBellycaster Frets: 5834
    edited December 2018
    My interpretation is that it relates to the note that the tonal harmony resolves to. So F Major and G dorian have the same notes, but if you play a solo over a piece of music suited to "G" Dorian and you focus on the F as the note to resolve to, it won't sound as natural to the ear as it would if you focused on the "G" Note as your tonal centre.

    I'm also assuming that the chord progression dictates the mode that fits best.

    @viz might be best to explain, but I think I'm in the right ball park

    Edited 5 times for accuracy...sodding Modes :)
    Only a Fool Would Say That.
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  • The key to the sound is the underlying harmony. For example if you’re in C and you’re playing over the chords C-Dm-G-C it will sound like C Ionian regardless of what mode of C you play, particularly if you’re resolving phrases to the chord tones properly. You can play the scale pattern of D Dorian, E Phrygian etc but you’re not really playing in those modes, it’s still C Ionian. To play in say D Dorian you would need to play over a D Dorian chord progression.
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  • Think mood rather than mode
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    It helps if you think about the root note of the mode as the note (or chord) you are playing over not the note it starts on.  
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  • Certain modes have certain flavours, major and minor intervals, etc. Its basically your major scale starting on different notes to give different sounds as the intervals change. Makes your playing less boxy and boring, if you're going to use pentatonics all the time, although Mr Clapton doesn't seem to care...
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  • Perhaps thinking about it in a different way might help? For example, a melody from a song in A minor might use the "same notes" as the melody of another song in C major, right? Your ear quickly recognises the minor nature of the first melody, and the major feel of the second, in the context of the harmony of the song. 

    That's really as complicated as it gets. A (natural) minor is a mode of C major, and vice versa. The first melody uses notes from the A Aeolian scale; the second draws it's melody notes from the C Ionian scale. 

    Although these two modes use the same notes, the intervals which make up the scale are in a different order. A is the "home" note in the first melody, while C is home for the second melody. This difference is what gives each scale it's characteristic sound.  Another melody in E Phrygian might also use the same notes; but E is now the home note, and the scale could perhaps be described as having a Spanish, or Flamenco sound.


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    It's most important in modal jazz improvisation:
    There are a set of rules that you can learn that determine which mode of which scale is recommended for soloing in for each half-bar, bar, pair of bars in a piece, based on the main melody and the chords.
    Learning it is a bit like seeing how magic tricks are performed, you originally think "wow they must be an inspired genius", then you discover it's a clever trick. A very complicated and splendid trick though, but with less inspiration than you thought.

    I assume that this is why you often see jazz musicians playing with the sheet music in front of them, even if they know the piece, since they need to know what scale and mode is needed for each bar

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  • vizviz Frets: 10646
    edited December 2018
    Thanks Stomach. Yes, as people have said. This is my take on it:


    I think the first two modes to look at are Ionian (or ‘major’) and Aeolian (or ‘natural minor’). 

    “Ionian” = major
    “Aeolian” = minor. 

    We rightly think of them as keys or scales. But they are also modes of each other. 

    We know A minor is the relative minor of C major. In fact it is a minor 3rd below C. Therefore it’s a major 6th above C, and it uses the same notes. ABCEDFGA.

    So, minor is the 6th MODE OF MAJOR. And major is the 3rd mode of minor!

    But major and minor are totally different. For example, C major sounds totally different from C minor.

    You see, when we think of modes as SCALES instead of modes of each other, each scale has its own unique flavour. 

    We can also think of modes in a relative way (like A minor is the 6th mode of C major, and D Dorian is the 2nd mode of C major), etc; but it’s really important also to consider ‘modal music’ in an absolute way, where we use a certain mode as a foundation to base our music from, like C minor, or C Lydian, or C Dorian, irrespective of how they relate to Ionian. 

    Flying in a blue dream is written in Lydian, not Ionian. It is not the 4th mode of anything, it just IS Lydian. 

    Greensleaves is written in Dorian, not Aeolian. It’s not the 2nd mode of Ionian, it’s just Dorian. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I find things like Modes fascinating. The fact that you can take a set of notes, and change the way they sound depending on how they interact with each other, and with the chords you play them over, holds a certain long term magic for me.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Steve922 said:
    ... My question is why? i.e. what is the point? .
    Modes are a theoretical construct which allow you to name different collections of notes. Many people find them very useful. Personally I don’t, but accept that other people do.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • People think about this backwards.

    Each mode is just a scale / key. Using that scale/key gives a particular tonality (feeling) to what you play. The fact that you can construct them from the same set of notes but starting in a different place is a convenient coincidence, that's all. 
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  • I prefer to think of them as slight variations on the major and minor scales. You get a slightly different vibe from Dorian compared to Aeolian for example.

    Twisted Imaginings - A Horror And Gore Themed Blog http://bit.ly/2DF1NYi


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  • When I was teaching myself some lead guitar, I learned the names of the modes to refer to the shapes of positions of the major scale.

    These days the same thing is called CAGED system.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited December 2018
    It's most important in modal jazz improvisation:
    There are a set of rules that you can learn that determine which mode of which scale is recommended for soloing in for each half-bar, bar, pair of bars in a piece, based on the main melody and the chords.
    Learning it is a bit like seeing how magic tricks are performed, you originally think "wow they must be an inspired genius", then you discover it's a clever trick. A very complicated and splendid trick though, but with less inspiration than you thought.

    I assume that this is why you often see jazz musicians playing with the sheet music in front of them, even if they know the piece, since they need to know what scale and mode is needed for each bar

    This is the significance of modes to me. It is simpler and more practical to think in modes where the tonal centre shifts very quickly (i.e. every half a bar at 200BPM). So when reading a chart with lots of modulations, if I see D7, I will think D myxolydian, instead of trying to compute that to G major and playing the corresponding scale. 

    Personally, I don't find it useful for songs (pink floyd or otherwise) that have a single tonal centre. As you have pointed out, C ionian and D dorian have the same notes. To me, I am just playing a C major scale.

    However, I can accept that some people have learnt to play using modes and their phrasing depends on what mode they think they're in. You could play the exact same thing using a major scale, without thinking in modes. If there isn't a difference in the music in the end, is there really a difference?

    This is my simple understanding of it. It goes alot deeper than this (see viz's post) but this is what has worked so far for me.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SINl5JY7LhI

    @viz I had a listen of the Satriani track flying in a blue dream. This is a track with shifting tonal centres. It is definitely easiest to play the corresponding lydian scale over the chords, since the harmonies imply lydian.

    Would you say that it is wrong to play G-major over the first chord, instead of C lydian? I see the benefit of thinking in modes, but since there is no difference in notes, one could think in ionian only and adjust phrasing to emphasise on the 4th note more giving it a lydian quality?
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    People think about this backwards.

    Each mode is just a scale / key. Using that scale/key gives a particular tonality (feeling) to what you play. The fact that you can construct them from the same set of notes but starting in a different place is a convenient coincidence, that's all. 
    Wow, ok! This is a completely new angle to me and something to ponder.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10646
    edited December 2018
    Branshen said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SINl5JY7LhI

    @viz I had a listen of the Satriani track flying in a blue dream. This is a track with shifting tonal centres. It is definitely easiest to play the corresponding lydian scale over the chords, since the harmonies imply lydian.

    Would you say that it is wrong to play G-major over the first chord, instead of C lydian? I see the benefit of thinking in modes, but since there is no difference in notes, one could think in ionian only and adjust phrasing to emphasise on the 4th note more giving it a lydian quality?
    Hey @Branshen. When you say ‘the first chord’ do you mean the initial feedbacky-swirling around in C, or the actual first plucked chord, which is the D major (II chord)?

    If you DO mean the D major, then no you can’t play a G major instead, because the whole point of this C Lydian song is to play that II-I progression. Whenever you get a major II chord in a major piece it’s Lydian (apart from when it’s used as a secondary dominant of course), and that’s the whole point of the harmony. 

    If you mean can you play a G triad instead of the C triad, then well, no you can’t really, because as the piece is in C (the tonal centre), you do really have to play a C chord when the C chord is wanted. Of course, the C triad itself doesn’t actually tell you it’s Lydian, because a triad lacks the 4th anyway (you only know it’s Lydian from the II major chord and the melody, which has a very noticeable F#), but nevertheless you can’t really just play the V instead of the I.

    The progression does go to the bVI and even the ‘bIV’ (F natural chord) but returns to the C Lydian home soon enough. I wouldn’t quite say that’s shifting tonal centres, just as a progression. 


    Branshen said:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SINl5JY7LhI


    Would you say that it is wrong to play G-major over the first chord, instead of C lydian? I see the benefit of thinking in modes, but since there is no difference in notes, one could think in ionian only and adjust phrasing to emphasise on the 4th note more giving it a lydian quality?

    When you play in Lydian, you basically ARE thinking in Ionion with sharp 4. So you can think in C Ionian with a sharp 4, but you ‘shouldn’t’ think in G, if that makes sense. Even though it may have one sharp written in the key signature. 




    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Play a chord. Play a single note with it. If you like the way they work together, use it again, if you don’t then don’t. Apply that theory to everything you play and you’ll never have to worry about modes again. Don’t play scales, build relationships. 
    'Vot eva happened to the Transylvanian Tvist?'
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited December 2018
    viz said:
    Hey @Branshen. When you say ‘the first chord’ do you mean the initial feedbacky-swirling around in C, or the actual first plucked chord, which is the D major (II chord)?

    If you DO mean the D major, then no you can’t play a G major instead, because the whole point of this C Lydian song is to play that II-I progression. Whenever you get a major II chord in a major piece it’s Lydian (apart from when it’s used as a secondary dominant of course), and that’s the whole point of the harmony. 

    If you mean can you play a G triad instead of the C triad, then well, no you can’t really, because as the piece is in C (the tonal centre), you do really have to play a C chord when the C chord is wanted. Of course, the C triad itself doesn’t actually tell you it’s Lydian, because a triad lacks the 4th anyway (you only know it’s Lydian from the II major chord and the melody, which has a very noticeable F#), but nevertheless you can’t really just play the V instead of the I.

    The progression does go to the bVI and even the ‘bIV’ (F natural chord) but returns to the C Lydian home soon enough. I wouldn’t quite say that’s shifting tonal centres, just as a progression. 

    Right. This is my analysis of the chord progression. Tell me if I'm completely wrong. 

    CMaj#11 to CMaj (0:14 - 0:59), AbMaj#11 to AbMaj (1:00 - 1:06), CMaj#11 to CMaj (1:07 - 1:15), GMaj#11 to GMaj (1:16 - 1:18), FMaj#11 to FMaj (1:19 - 1:22), CMaj#11 to CMaj (1:23 - 1:30)

    So to me, because of the #11 in all of the chords, C lydian, A lydian, G lydian and F lydian are the tonal centres (or keys) at different points of the song over the respective #11 chords. (I hope I'm making sense here).

    edit: I've just reread my post and see where I've confused you (i.e. my incorrect usage of "G major"), what i meant was G major scale/ G ionian.

    viz said:

    When you play in Lydian, you basically ARE thinking in Ionion with sharp 4. So you can think in C Ionian with a sharp 4, but you ‘shouldn’t’ think in G, if that makes sense. Even though it may have one sharp written in the key signature. 
    I think this is exactly the OP's question. C lydian and G Ionian have the exact notes (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B.), why shouldn't we think in G?
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