What is the point in Modes?

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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    Steve922 said:
    I just don't get it. Apparently, Phrygian Mode is different to Mixolydian Mode or Ionian Mode or .....  But they all use the same notes! So what gives?
       Don't misunderstand, I believe I know what the various modes are, i.e. simply playing the same 7 (or 8) notes in the same order but starting on a different one. My question is why? i.e. what is the point? Since there's so many people referring to these modes I'm assuming there is a point, I'd like to know what I'm missing.
    I faced this exact difficulty early on and I think you're saying that C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G myxolydian, A aeolian, B Locrian all have the same notes, so why not just think in C major and start on a different note? 

    I've just had a little breakthrough and the answer is that although they may all have the same notes, they each have a distinct flavour. As mentioned by fishfingers above, a song in C major (ionian) and in A minor (aeolian) all have the same notes, but they will sound very different.

    Branshen said:
    I think this is exactly the OP's question. C lydian and G Ionian have the exact notes (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B.), why shouldn't we think in G?
    @viz, I think i answered my own question above... but would appreciate any further input from you. 

    Apologies all for rambling and thinking aloud..
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited December 2018
    Branshen said:



    I think this is exactly the OP's question. C lydian and G Ionian have the exact notes (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B.), why shouldn't we think in G?
    Ah. I see what you’re asking. It’s a fundamental question and really needs to be understood 100% before exploring modes. The answer is simply:

    Because G is not the tonal centre or ‘home’ note. So the song is not “in G”, because “in G” means “the tonal centre, or home note is G”. 

    Here is the hierarchy of how to approach the question of a key in a piece of music. You really have to answer these questions in order:

    1) What note is home? That gives you the Tonic, or 1st degree of the scale. 

    2) Is the piece major or minor? (listen to the Mediant, or 3rd degree of the scale).

    3) Is it ‘modal’? - ie if the 3rd tells you it’s major and it has a perfect 5th, does it have a raised 4th (Lydian) or a lowered 7th (Mixolydian)? If it’s minor, does it have a raised 6th (Dorian) or a lowered 2nd (Phrygian)? Otherwise it’s Ionian (major) or Aeolian (natural minor). 

    4) If none of the above then you’ve either got Locrian (unlikely), or a non-diatonic piece (entirely possible). 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    viz said:
    Ah. I see what you’re asking. It’s a fundamental question and really needs to be understood 100% before exploring modes. The answer is simply:

    Because G is not the tonal centre or ‘home’ note. So the song is not “in G”, because “in G” means “the tonal centre, or home note is G”. 

    Here is the hierarchy of how to approach the question of a key in a piece of music. You really have to answer these questions in order:

    1) What note is home? That gives you the Tonic, or 1st degree of the scale. 

    2) Is the piece major or minor? (listen to the Mediant, or 3rd degree of the scale).

    3) Is it ‘modal’? - ie if the 3rd tells you it’s major and it has a perfect 5th, does it have a raised 4th (Lydian) or a lowered 7th (Mixolydian)? If it’s minor, does it have a raised 6th (Dorian) or a lowered 2nd (Phrygian)? Otherwise it’s Ionian (major) or Aeolian (natural minor). 

    4) If none of the above then you’ve either got Locrian (unlikely), or a non-diatonic piece (entirely possible). 

    Very nice breakdown. This is great! Thanks Viz. 
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    I think the significance of the modes is easy to overlook in pop and rock music because so much of it comes from the blues, which was largely modal in the first place. We are all so used to hearing modal music that it sounds perfectly natural.

    When classical composers of the 19th century were confronted with modal folk tunes for the first time they found them alien and strange. As Viz says, the key difference between G Mixolydian and C major is that the home note is G rather than C. This means that if you try to harmonise a melody in G Mixolydian, you can't use a V-I cadence -- an absolutely fundamental building block of classical harmony -- to accompany the return to the home note. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited December 2018
    Stuckfast said:
    I think the significance of the modes is easy to overlook in pop and rock music because so much of it comes from the blues, which was largely modal in the first place. We are all so used to hearing modal music that it sounds perfectly natural.

    When classical composers of the 19th century were confronted with modal folk tunes for the first time they found them alien and strange. As Viz says, the key difference between G Mixolydian and C major is that the home note is G rather than C. This means that if you try to harmonise a melody in G Mixolydian, you can't use a V-I cadence -- an absolutely fundamental building block of classical harmony -- to accompany the return to the home note. 
    True - I had the same experience having been brought up on a diet of renaissance, baroque and classical. 

    The way I guess they made sense of it was by allowing V-I cadences regardless, thus deviating from the diatonic and allowing a major 3rd on the V, just like had been made common with harmonic minor centuries before. 

    The V7-Ib7 in blues is a classic example of this, as you say. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • carloscarlos Frets: 3426
    There are a set of rules that you can learn that determine which mode of which scale is recommended for soloing in for each half-bar, bar, pair of bars in a piece, based on the main melody and the chords.
    Huh? Jazz musicians think in terms of chord tones. Modes are cute and all, but only make sense if the whole composition is based around them, which to be honest most won't be. I can guarantee you that no jazzer will think in modes for a half bar, like "this bar is C Mixolydian for the first half and then A phrygian for the second half". That would be really hard to parse and play in real time. It's much easier to just look at the chord and think about what notes matter in that chord. So if it says C13 and Am7b9 I'm thinking C (root), Bb (flat 7), E (major 3rd) and A (the 13 in the chord) for the C13 and then A (root), G (the flat 7), Bb (the b9 in the chord) and C (minor 3rd) for the Am7b9. Note that they share a lot of notes, but the chord will tell me what notes matter in that context. If I was thinking C Mixolydian to A Phrygian I'd be handling a group of 7 notes followed by another group of 7 notes with no clue as to which notes matter and which ones don't. Not practical.
    I assume that this is why you often see jazz musicians playing with the sheet music in front of them, even if they know the piece, since they need to know what scale and mode is needed for each bar
    The reason you play with a chart is because a repertoire of 20 tunes or so will have hundreds of chords to memorise. Sure, you will know a lot of tunes by heart, but usually learning the melody is much easier than memorising all those chord sequences. Plus you never know what you might play. The Real Book volume 1 (current edition) has 400 tunes in it! A cynic would say it's just II-V-I's over and over, but surely it's nice to actually have the chords in front of you.
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658

    I guess I'll stick my oar in too. This subject can get pretty deep and there is already some great advice here, but I’ll try to be succinct in the hope I don’t confuse things more...

     @Steve922 I think the problem lies in how we are introduced to learning modes and it seems you’ve only looked at them from one angle perhaps?

    There are generally two approaches to looking at modes - derivative and parallel (there are other ways though). Both have pros and cons regarding getting to grips with this stuff. It appears you’re taking the derivative approach, which is fine. Just to clarify...

    Derivative - To get all the modes from a parent scale so the modes are all the same pool of notes. C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc are all just the C major scale as you know. 

    Parallel - To get the modes from a fixed note so you have to change the formula for each mode. How does C Ionian differ to C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Lydian and so on...

    Knowing how modes are constructed and where they relate to is really important but is only one part of the equation. The other is the relationship with chords as each mode works with particular types of chords. It’s really pretty important to have a decent knowledge of diatonic theory and chord construction. 

    For example, Cm7 can use either C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian. 

    But for something like Cm6, it’s a little more exact so you’d want to go for C Dorian. I won’t go into why, but Cm6 comes from the Bb Major scale. So how can we find C Dorian?

    Derivative - What major scale is C the 2nd note of? Yep Bb major and with Dorian being mode 2 you could just think Bb major but from C to C. 

    Parallel - how do you turn C Ionian to C Dorian? If you know how modes are constructed you know to flatten the 3rd and 7th of a major scale to get Dorian. So C D Eb F G A Bb C (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) which is still Bb from C to C. 

    Same result but different ways of getting there. But what shouldn’t change is thinking and playing in C Dorian. 

    Derivative was my way in for getting my head around modes, but much I prefer the parallel approach as it allows me to clearly hear and understand the differences between the modes.

    Additionally it’s really important to be aware of the colour notes of each mode, how they sound and how to handle them. The natural 6th of Dorian is a great note to sit on, but the b6 of Aeolian much less so etc. Play Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian in this order, to a min7 vamp and see how different each one sounds. 

    I remember being puzzled by this stuff for ages, but it does get there so stick with it.  

    So much for being succinct...

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    As for jazz, well it’s universally accepted that Kind Of Blue ushered in the era of modal jazz so since then, modes and modal thinking definitely have their place in jazz.

    For me, whether I’ll think modally or just chord tones depends on a few factors. How many changes are in the tune and how fast the tempo. Even with a tune with a lot of changes and difficult chords, if the tempo is slow enough then modes can be explored. Pretty much anything with a fast tempo I’ll likely stick to chord tones, enclosures etc.. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    I’ll just throw my beautiful scales compendium in at this stage to reflect Brad’s derivative method. If you open the file on a pc you can click on each scale to hear it. 

    http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    So scales , modes and notes etc etc etc .............
    And yes, you can play a minor chord over the Dorian , Phrygian and aeolian, 7th over Mixo... etc

    Q1
    But can someone simply say how one determines what mode a chord SEQUENCE is in please?

    eg
    C E (maj) Am F - what mode is that in ?
    I’ve thrown that one in because the move from G to G# in the first 2 chords, as well as the A natural in the last 2 chords.  And no 3 consecutive semitones appear in any of the 7 modes scales ?

    Or 
    Q2.
    simple 12 bar blues E A and B
    How can you play an Emin Pentatonic over that, as most people do - ie derived from the Aeolian of G major , which has a G natural in it; whereas the E major chord has a G# in it ?
    Maybe that’s a completely different question however.



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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6595
    At the risk of sounding crass, the more experience you have with say, wine tasting, then the more you will taste in it and the more ways you will need to find to explain those differences and complexities. Same goes for cooking, the more you learn, the more ways you find to add, change and develop new ways of combining taste and texture and therefore if you're teaching, the more terminology you will need to explain what you're doing. 

    Many types of Music are pretty complex and sometimes new vocabulary has to be used to describe what's going on. You only need the vocabulary to describe what's going on if you're actually asked, or if you're asking in order to learn more. 

    Think about Arabic/Turkish Music for a moment. They have incredibly complex modes (not scales) that contain not just quarter tones, but much smaller divisions. And they have amazing complex systems during improvisations to move between modes. Also those modes have specific melodic "personalities" that according to the system have to behave in certain ways, otherwise you're not actually playing the mode correctly. They're not just choices of notes ascending or descending, but the modes have very specific emotional and melodic shape. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    merlin said:
    At the risk of sounding crass, the more experience you have with say, wine tasting, then the more you will taste in it and the more ways you will need to find to explain those differences and complexities. Same goes for cooking, the more you learn, the more ways you find to add, change and develop new ways of combining taste and texture and therefore if you're teaching, the more terminology you will need to explain what you're doing. 

    Many types of Music are pretty complex and sometimes new vocabulary has to be used to describe what's going on. You only need the vocabulary to describe what's going on if you're actually asked, or if you're asking in order to learn more. 

    Think about Arabic/Turkish Music for a moment. They have incredibly complex modes (not scales) that contain not just quarter tones, but much smaller divisions. And they have amazing complex systems during improvisations to move between modes. Also those modes have specific melodic "personalities" that according to the system have to behave in certain ways, otherwise you're not actually playing the mode correctly. They're not just choices of notes ascending or descending, but the modes have very specific emotional and melodic shape. 
    Great music, I love it too. Nice post Wizard. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited January 2019
    sev112 said:
    So scales , modes and notes etc etc etc .............
    And yes, you can play a minor chord over the Dorian , Phrygian and aeolian, 7th over Mixo... etc

    Q1
    But can someone simply say how one determines what mode a chord SEQUENCE is in please?

    eg
    C E (maj) Am F - what mode is that in ?
    I’ve thrown that one in because the move from G to G# in the first 2 chords, as well as the A natural in the last 2 chords.  And no 3 consecutive semitones appear in any of the 7 modes scales ?

    Or 
    Q2.
    simple 12 bar blues E A and B
    How can you play an Emin Pentatonic over that, as most people do - ie derived from the Aeolian of G major , which has a G natural in it; whereas the E major chord has a G# in it ?
    Maybe that’s a completely different question however.



    1) is in C major (or Ionian if you want.) The E is just a secondary dominant to make the III-vi progression stronger, like a proper V-i progression. ie., the song is not completely diatonic but borrows a major III chord. 

    2) Blues music plays on the tension between the major 3rd and minor 3rd; and also between the perfect 4th, augmented 4th (or diminished 5th) and perfect 5th; and the minor 7th and major 7th. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • carloscarlos Frets: 3426
    1) Excellent reply. This is why it's good to play these examples. Just because it doesn't work on paper doesn't mean it doesn't work as music. In this example the movement from C to E isn't that hard because E is still the parallel major to the diatonic E minor, it's not like you're going from C to Eb. And then the movement from E to Am works really well for the reasons @viz explained, i.e. it resolves to Am.
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  • imalrightjackimalrightjack Frets: 3723
    edited January 2019
    @steve922 I’ve been where you are. I feel your pain. I used to play natural minor only (aeolian). It worked for a long time, apart from when it clearly didn’t. But I knew the relative minor was one and a half steps down from the major, so I worked through it. Modes baffled me. I later realised, through learning the songs from my band (not written by me), that I needed to know more. So, that song that went between C major and D major (the 4th and 5th) must be from G major. Aha, I’ll play E aeolian! It worked too. It was C Lydian, effectively speaking (to my understanding - I’m sure it could be explained more technically and accurately). I’ve since taken to playing along to YouTube jams, etc. and learning the modes from their roots. It sounds much better. More natural. More flowing. The relative approach garnered me great praise from many listeners (solo of the month on here!) but I’m far happier now I know the patterns better.

    I now want to understand the jazz rules!
    Trading feedback info here

    My band, Red For Dissent
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  • finest1finest1 Frets: 94
    it sounds like your frustrated with the modes, which is understandable!! it would help if you tell us what level of guitar you are on, for example, are you a beginner, or have musical experience but in one genre, like the blues for example.  as you can see from the responses above, members are trying to throw as much advice, but it could seem even more confusing!!!

    my tips would be the following (FYI, I still struggle with the modes, 15 years on!)

    learn the intervals of a scale. these are the numbers of the notes. this helps when you learn alongside the notes

    modes work based on a root note. for example a root note of C. if you play a C major scale, and then a C Phrygian scale you should hear an immediate difference. the "difference" is what makes the Phrygian mode.

    listen to music, different types of music and try to guess the "feeling" of them. sounds simple, but try it. for example:

    the opening of star wars theme. I think everyone knows that. listen to the melody and try to capture that "feeling" its definitely a major mode. you could call it happy, epic, triumphant maybe. but then compare it to the imperial march (darth vader theme) that's definitely not happy! you could call it sinister, evil, not comfortable.  this is the point im making, try to describe what you hear.   so those 2 pieces are modal. yes its in a different key, but that's not the point, its the character of the piece you are hearing.

    remember the Dr WHO theme? try to guess what mode the starting piece is? there is actually 2 parts to it see if you can hear it

    if you are still struggling, then you may want to explore ear training, or pitch training. maybe your ears are not "hearing" certain intervals. even if you can't work out all the modes, just knowing three or four is enough for you to develop your own style.

    good luck!
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    This is flying so far over my head I can't even see it with binoculars
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    So what are the modes in the 2 Star Wars pieces

    i hate the “one sounds happy and one sounds sad” explanation
    no it doesn’t!!!  It still doesn’t explain anything using Star Wars, as it did in school music lessons when the teacher said “doesn’t this sound happy”.  No it didn’t then either. 

    Maybe what you think sounds happy isn’t what I imagine.  And I play lots of “happy” upbeat songs starting on A minor. 
    Stairway to heaven when it gets rocky sounds very happy and energetic to me , yet it is Am G F

    Or Happy Birthday? C G and F, so Ionian in C?
    most miserable sounding song you can find - I think, maybe others think it sound happy?

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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526
    sev112 said:
    So what are the modes in the 2 Star Wars pieces

    i hate the “one sounds happy and one sounds sad” explanation
    no it doesn’t!!!  It still doesn’t explain anything using Star Wars, as it did in school music lessons when the teacher said “doesn’t this sound happy”.  No it didn’t then either. 

    Maybe what you think sounds happy isn’t what I imagine.  And I play lots of “happy” upbeat songs starting on A minor. 
    Stairway to heaven when it gets rocky sounds very happy and energetic to me , yet it is Am G F

    Or Happy Birthday? C G and F, so Ionian in C?
    most miserable sounding song you can find - I think, maybe others think it sound happy?

     Stairway to me sounds dark in the beginning and more up beat towards the end. 
    Happy birthday to me is Happy and up beat . with or without the words. but the tempo needs to be upbeat or it can sound miserable with or without the words. sometimes tunes can be boring.  I use the JAYJO mode for them.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    The happy/sad thing is ok sometimes but, for example, Holst’s In the Bleak Mid Winter is major, but hardly happy! And Putting on the Ritz is not exactly sad either. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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