Drums with 1 mic - dynamic or condenser?

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  • Another option is to borrow another Zoom H2 or H6, and record on that separately to expand your input count, and then just sync them in the DAW later against a drum-transient.

    Bye!

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I've done plenty of recordings with 2 drum mic's but generally I would always prefer 2 overheads and a kick to get anything reasonable. Basically with drums it's all down to how the drummer plays .... if he has a heavy foot on the kick, hit's the snare well and doesn't bash the hell out of the cymbals you have a chance with one or 2 mic's but if it's the other way round all you can do is keep you single mic low down to avoid as much cymbals as poss. Drummers that are good to gig small venues with often are the worse to record with funny enough .... it's a whole different art ... drums are a bunch of tubs and metal but essentially one instrument and it's all about how the drummer can balance the various volumes of the drums before the sound hit's the mic

    Recording live and recording all instruments separately is a different game. The spill picked up in other mics can actually add to the ambience and sense of space .... it can be a pain in the arse if you need to heavily compress the vocals and there's a ton of cymbal spill in the vocal track but spill in guitar mics and others can actually add nicely. Of course spill is a no no if you record to a click and want to move drum hits around and time everything up afterwards  but that's a whole other long trip down a rabbit hole

    Being old and all I can tell you basically in the days of 4 track recording we used to sub mix the drums, bass and guitars done to one stereo track called the backing track and that left you the vocal on it's own track and backing vox .... the solo's would then punch in and out between vocals. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Mount the H6 on a stand, above the drumkit. As if it was an X/Y overhead pair. Try to use it only for drums. A little bit of bass and guitars is okay, but don't overdo it.

    Use the rest of the inputs however you were going to do so.

    Later on in the mix, use plugins to isolate and trigger kick+snare+toms and mix them in with the original X/Y recording. It'll probably take some extra midi editing work, but it'll sound much better for it. The most important thing will be to make a tempo-map in your DAW that matches your drum recordings.

    The most important thing for a good live drum sound - in my opinion - is a sense of space. A single mono mic is not going to give you that and will put your recordings roughly back in 1952. Which is bad. Again, imo.

    Things like bass and guitars are so easy to track at home now, that your priority should be drums, and depending on the vocals, getting great vocal takes. With great vocal takes and stereo-sounding drums, everything else can be redone and redone until it's right.
    You seem really determined to make things as complicated as possible for the OP!

    Yes that would conceivably be a way of making a polished sounding track if you got it right. However, it would

    (a) be made up largely of samples and overdubs, and thus sound not much like the OP's band playing live

    (b) introduce numerous pitfalls into the process

    (c) take forever

    (d) require expertise and possibly equipment that the OP may not have

    (e) suck all the joy out of making and recording music.

    If the OP is after something that sounds like a polished studio demo, he'd be infinitely better advised to book a local studio for the day. He's not. He's after something listenable that represents the live sound of his band, and assuming the band are good and the room sounds all right, it should be feasible to achieve that using a handful of mics in a rehearsal studio -- especially if they can overdub the vocals later.

    I've recorded a lot of bands and my favourite recordings have always been the ones done with all the instruments in the same room.
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    ... in fact, whereabouts in Northants are you, OP? I might be able to help you out if you can get over Thrapston way for a day ...
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  • WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16664
    edited January 2019
    Stuckfast said:
    Mount the H6 on a stand, above the drumkit. As if it was an X/Y overhead pair. Try to use it only for drums. A little bit of bass and guitars is okay, but don't overdo it.

    Use the rest of the inputs however you were going to do so.

    Later on in the mix, use plugins to isolate and trigger kick+snare+toms and mix them in with the original X/Y recording. It'll probably take some extra midi editing work, but it'll sound much better for it. The most important thing will be to make a tempo-map in your DAW that matches your drum recordings.

    The most important thing for a good live drum sound - in my opinion - is a sense of space. A single mono mic is not going to give you that and will put your recordings roughly back in 1952. Which is bad. Again, imo.

    Things like bass and guitars are so easy to track at home now, that your priority should be drums, and depending on the vocals, getting great vocal takes. With great vocal takes and stereo-sounding drums, everything else can be redone and redone until it's right.
    You seem really determined to make things as complicated as possible for the OP!

    Yes that would conceivably be a way of making a polished sounding track if you got it right. However, it would

    (a) be made up largely of samples and overdubs, and thus sound not much like the OP's band playing live

    (b) introduce numerous pitfalls into the process

    (c) take forever

    (d) require expertise and possibly equipment that the OP may not have

    (e) suck all the joy out of making and recording music.

    If the OP is after something that sounds like a polished studio demo, he'd be infinitely better advised to book a local studio for the day. He's not. He's after something listenable that represents the live sound of his band, and assuming the band are good and the room sounds all right, it should be feasible to achieve that using a handful of mics in a rehearsal studio -- especially if they can overdub the vocals later.

    I've recorded a lot of bands and my favourite recordings have always been the ones done with all the instruments in the same room.
    Each to their own, but you're not the only one with experience in recording bands. Everything I suggested is dead easy in 2019. It's not complicated at all. Teenagers are doing it every single day!

    A: Samples are to augment the live performance. They're not replacing anything. I didn't mention overdubs. OP did in his subsequent posts when he talked about recording guitars at home. What I suggested wouldn't necessarily require any overdubs. It depends. And The idea that it wouldn't sound anything like his band... that's preposterous.

    B - Such as?

    C - No. It would take a couple of extra days. It's really not the earth-shattering amount of work you're suggesting. I've done it many times myself.

    D - Quite possibly. But I see no reason to discount the OP's abilities. Plus he could always get someone else involved to help out.

    E - LOLOLOLOLOL!!! That's funny. Almost like you're trying to suggest there is only one way to make and enjoy making music!

    FWIW, I did suggest borrowing an additional Zoom as an alternative. I'm well aware that there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to the art of recording and mixing music.

    But really... in the current year, what I suggested was not as crazy or radical as you suggest. 

    Bye!

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    I'm not saying it's either crazy or radical. I'm saying it's not an answer to the OP's question, which was about how to get a half-decent live recording of his band.

    Unless I'm missing something, everything you say about getting great vocal takes and about tracking bass and guitars at home and doing multiple takes until you get them right pretty much only applies to doing overdubs?
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  • Stuckfast said:


    Unless I'm missing something, everything you say about getting great vocal takes and about tracking bass and guitars at home and doing multiple takes until you get them right pretty much only applies to doing overdubs?
    Which is explicitly in response to what the OP has put in this thread regarding tracking. OP is not exactly consistent with what he is saying he wants to achieve.

    Also, OP is in a stoner rock band. Those bands play LOUD. You guys are downplaying the severity of bleed I think. It's going to be quite severe, especially in a small room, and especially with condenser microphones.

    Another thing to do would be to just use room mics. Put one in each corner of the room, and phase-align and mix them later on, coupled with the X/Y on the Zoom itself, that would give 6 tracks to work with. If you can't get a great mix out of that, then more schooling is needed I'd say.

    Bye!

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    In principle bleed is only a problem to do with relative levels rather than absolute levels. If everyone in band A plays 12dB louder than everyone in band B, in theory you'll get the same relative level of spill onto each mic. Now that's not quite true in practice because playing really loud can do funny things to the room sound, but loudness in itself isn't necessarily a problem for bleed.

    Where loudness can be an issue is in things like overloading the inputs on those handheld recorders, and especially in situations where you're trying to do live vocals over a PA in the same room -- which is why I'd recommend avoiding that if possible.
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited January 2019
    Stuckfast said:


    Unless I'm missing something, everything you say about getting great vocal takes and about tracking bass and guitars at home and doing multiple takes until you get them right pretty much only applies to doing overdubs?
    Which is explicitly in response to what the OP has put in this thread regarding tracking. OP is not exactly consistent with what he is saying he wants to achieve.
    Sorry about that I've just been getting ideas inspired by ideas in the thread and going off rambling. To make it clear, we just need to record some demos that are a step above using a phone or the zoom mic by itself, but as I have access to the extra mics and have done bits and pieces in the past I may as well try and do the best I can without stressing myself out about it.

    We plan on doing a few proper studio recordings later on down the line, for now this is just a DIY patch to show people what we sound like and give a fair representation of what to expect if foolish enough to come see us live
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  • It's gonna be the mix that makes your demo sound better than a phone or just a stereo recording in a room.

    With Stoner stuff you very often have a busy low-end, so think about what you want the focus to be in the lows. Kick or bass?? If kick... mic the kick. If bass... mic the bass, or take a DI. You wont need to worry too much about the snare I don't think - snare is the one thing that will cut through in a live context. Particularly in a small room.

    X/Y: Drum OH's or general room sound - make a decision on the day as to what sounds the most balanced. Position of the H6 is going to be uber-critical here.
    XLR 1: Kick or bass, depending on what you want to be the focus of the low-end
    XLR 2: Snare - being able to add a bit of snare transient back into the mix will be beneficial
    XLR 3: Vocals - sounds like you're after a "live" vibe, so record the vocals
    XLR 4: Guitar

    That's how I'd tackle it.

    Compression is going to be your friend on the X/Y recording. A bit of tape saturation too.

    Make sure you set your Zoom to record in 24bit WAV. Easy mistake to make.

    Bye!

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    I still maintain that you'll make the biggest difference by not attempting to do vocals over a PA in the same room, but of course playing the songs without vocals might feel weird.

    One thing -- don't fall into the trap of thinking that you'll achieve better results by moving the amps as far away from the kit as possible -- in most cases the opposite is true.
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited January 2019
    When I say stoner rock I'm not really talking the super thick sludgy wall of sound, more just riffy stuff like Clutch, Down, CoC, Sabbath etc. I don't want it to be a muddy sludge fest.

    Thanks for all the advice in this thread, hopefully I'll be able to put it into practice this week.

    Edit - like an idiot I completely forgot I could use my laptop and 2 channel interface to let me record every channel live. As you say sync in post is easy and I'll now have enough channels to play around with and use dedicated spot mics for the drums :)
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    feel free to let some of us have a go at a mix too--good luck
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    Will do - I've done the odd bit of home recording and mixing but never with consistent results for one reason or another.
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  • Tempo map the songs at home. Record a guide bass/guitar track(s) to metronome. Take your laptop to the studio and have your drummer record in insolation to the guide track/metronome. record guitars and vocals separately after, either in the studio or via plug ins at home.
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  • What I'd do is use any mic but configure it for minimal bleed from other sources, use gobos or whatever where possible, then use it as a reference to program the drums.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited January 2019
    Well if anyone is curious the recording sesh was a bit of a shambles. No bass player for this practice and a very rushed setup due to running late. My SM57 is either fucked or fake as my guitar track was un-usable, just thin and awful. Should have checked beforehand but I just wanted to play by that point. I've re recorded it with Spark and done a fake bass track and it sounds ok considering... I'll link it tomorrow when we get the Facebook page up and running!

    Will have another attempt in a few rehearsals time. As we have 2 guitars and bass I'll do my bits at home to save an input for the snare. Need to figure out a better overhead position for the zoom i think. And definitely without vocals. I underestimated how much spill would come through his mic.
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  • wave100wave100 Frets: 150
    Use the live track as a guide and re-record the vocals at home.
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