Switching DAWs

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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 326
    The only caveat I would add o that is that the editing facility in PT's is better and more intuitive,
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  • icu81b4icu81b4 Frets: 365
    I have been using Sonar Platinum for years and like Snap I have just changed to the free version from Bandlab - I withheld because I was in the middle of a project and didn't want any problems - however the change was very simple and works a treat. 
    I also have Studio One (Which I bought when I thought Sonar was going under) but prefer Cakewalk. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited January 2019
    octatonic said:
    Reaper is a no-brainer as it is virtually free.
    Start with that.

    Pro Tools is expensive to get in and they ransom you with yearly 'support payments.
    I spend $400 a year just to have Pro Tools Ultimate license stay current- it is a massive ball ache and frankly I really dislike Avid's business model.

    Yeah.... I mean if people care in 2019 about the words "industry standard" and want to pay $400 a year just so Avid respond to their emails then thats ok but wtf

    Maybe 15 years ago when there really wasn't a viable alternative out there but ffs Reaper can do anything ProTools can in a large studio and in a small home environment where midi is usually important, ProTools gets whipped by pretty much every single other DAW out there

    INDUSTRY STANDARD!!! I wonder how much of that $400 a year actually goes into advertising and bungs to magazines to keep repeating that mantra
    Maybe for hobbyists, but professionals have to have Pro Tools.

    Anyone working professionally in audio needs to be able to open a Pro Tools session and export, even if they use another DAW.
    If I didn't have it then I'd get a lot less work.

    PT still has some features that you don't get in other DAW's and it almost completely owns audio post.
    Try doing ATMOS in Reaper.

    I don't particularly like it- I much prefer Logic, Live and Sequoia but I rarely get given Logic and Live sessions and I've never had anyone deliver me a Sequoia session.
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  • octatonic said:
    octatonic said:
    Reaper is a no-brainer as it is virtually free.
    Start with that.

    Pro Tools is expensive to get in and they ransom you with yearly 'support payments.
    I spend $400 a year just to have Pro Tools Ultimate license stay current- it is a massive ball ache and frankly I really dislike Avid's business model.

    Yeah.... I mean if people care in 2019 about the words "industry standard" and want to pay $400 a year just so Avid respond to their emails then thats ok but wtf

    Maybe 15 years ago when there really wasn't a viable alternative out there but ffs Reaper can do anything ProTools can in a large studio and in a small home environment where midi is usually important, ProTools gets whipped by pretty much every single other DAW out there

    INDUSTRY STANDARD!!! I wonder how much of that $400 a year actually goes into advertising and bungs to magazines to keep repeating that mantra
    Maybe for hobbyists, but professionals have to have Pro Tools.

    Anyone working professionally in audio needs to be able to open a Pro Tools session and export, even if they use another DAW.
    If I didn't have it then I'd get a lot less work.

    PT still has some features that you don't get in other DAW's and it almost completely owns audio post.
    Try doing ATMOS in Reaper.

    I don't particularly like it- I much prefer Logic, Live and Sequoia but I rarely get given Logic and Live sessions and I've never had anyone deliver me a Sequoia session.
    Yeah you need to be able to open ProTools because everyone has it because its "Industry Standard" that was kinda my point. Its no longer because its the only option.

    Reaper isn't able to mix Atmos because Dolby havent bothered to get round to providing support for it yet (although Im pretty sure I heard it was meant to be coming in 2019). Out with mixing for films where are the benefits for most studios?

    Im sorry if I'm a bit grrrr on ProTools but ive had an irrational hatred of the DAW for a very long time and I also think its a complete con by this point and Ive had nothing but bad experiences and 2nd rate support from Avid. 

    I mean, by 2019 would it freakin kill them to include a decent drum editor? 


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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Yeah you need to be able to open ProTools because everyone has it because its "Industry Standard" that was kinda my point. Its no longer because its the only option.

    Reaper isn't able to mix Atmos because Dolby havent bothered to get round to providing support for it yet (although Im pretty sure I heard it was meant to be coming in 2019). Out with mixing for films where are the benefits for most studios?

    Im sorry if I'm a bit grrrr on ProTools but ive had an irrational hatred of the DAW for a very long time and I also think its a complete con by this point and Ive had nothing but bad experiences and 2nd rate support from Avid. 

    I mean, by 2019 would it freakin kill them to include a decent drum editor? 

    It isn't just because everyone has it, it is because most projects begin and end in it in professional circles.
    In the US it is the only game in town for mixing.
    In Europe you get a few more people using Logic, Nuendo, Cubase but it is still pretty all consuming.

    Show me a better way to do multitrack drum edits than with Beat Detective?

    I agree that the lack of a drum editor is an irritant, but it isn't the only DAW to lack one.
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  • joeyowenjoeyowen Frets: 4025
    Am I missing something in regards to the drum editor

    Most place use 3rd part anyway, so why does pro tools need one?

    (Honestly, I might be missing what you mean)
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    joeyowen said:
    Am I missing something in regards to the drum editor

    Most place use 3rd part anyway, so why does pro tools need one?

    (Honestly, I might be missing what you mean)
    You are right, to a degree.

    But if you started in Cubase it is a feature that you get used to and when you switch to a different DAW you will notice it missing.
    Logic doesn't have a drum editor either, fwiw.
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    I'm half way through my final year of a Uni degree, and that was my introduction to PT, course was split 50-50 between Logic for composition and PT for recording. Industry standard was and is the mantra for PT, but for the home user, its a big spend, compared to £150 for Logic (then)
    Uni standard for music production is based around Mac, which again used to be 'industry standard' and it started to bug me a few years back when Apple ramped up prices of Macbook pros and removed the ability to upgrade.
    I then had the realisation that to be able to be working, I couldn't rely on one machine, platform or DAW, they all have their own limitations and bugs, ever wanted to get something done and had to wait for a windows update ?, or been nagged by Apple to perform an OS update--well before all your software is compatible? ( PT is STILL not fully comp with latest Apple OS, at least if you consider your DAW includes ALL your plugins-SLATE etc.)
    Before I started my final year I decided to try Reaper, as it is cross platform, and unlimited in its demo form, and by the end of the same day had paid my license fee, it simple does everything I want in a DAW, admittedly, I'm not working on any Hollywood scores, or mixing for a top 10 act, at the moment, but I challenge anyone to try opening a PT session, and time it, then compare that to opening a Reaper session, or even try doing a PT update, including Ilok manager, usually a couple of Gigs, Vs Reapers 17 MEG DL, and 65 MEG install.
    if time is money--PT is EXPENSIVE, Logic is cheap, Reaper is FREE, and then when you hit a problem with PT, or Logic, try and find the answer quickly, with Reaper, just watch Kenny's vids, if he hasn't already answered it-there is always the public forum.
    Cakewalk is another one Itried, as it is free, but again, it is no longer supported, so I doubt it will work on Mac, nothing to lose by trying it-for free, but the biggest investment at the end of the day, is TIME, I wouldn't waste my time, these days, trying to become a Pro-tools Ninja, unless I was being paid to use it.

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356

    To be fair when it comes to editing real drums I would use Protools over anything. I've kind of got used to the midi in PT as well and I'm pretty quick at looping regions and such. 

    Previous bits of hardware and older versions of PT are considered obsolete now and as far as working professionally with others go they may well be. But if you only need to work on your own then there are insane bargains out there. My current rig is a 2007 iMac and an Mbox Pro that came with PT LE 8 . Total cost less than £100 .....
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    Danny1969 said:

    To be fair when it comes to editing real drums I would use Protools over anything. I've kind of got used to the midi in PT as well and I'm pretty quick at looping regions and such. 

    Previous bits of hardware and older versions of PT are considered obsolete now and as far as working professionally with others go they may well be. But if you only need to work on your own then there are insane bargains out there. My current rig is a 2007 iMac and an Mbox Pro that came with PT LE 8 . Total cost less than £100 .....
    I tried setting up an Mbox2 on a pc, with full versions of PT8, couldnt even get the lights to work--not worth the effort, unless you want to maintain a museum of musical hardware--PT is now making a lot of its fairly recent harware obsolete in a similar fashion, 11 rack is being sold off cheap, and some of the older control surfaces are no longer supported.
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256

    Sonar/Cakewalk for Mac was a free prototype a couple of years ago. I have an i5 Mac Mini and installed it, and it works a treat. Perfectly good enough as a backup.

    Never really got on with the Mac OS though, so not into Logic. As someone who's used PCs since 92, and is therefore v familiar with tinkering, rebuilding, mods, and the windows OS, I find the Apple closed system both expensive and a pain.

    Never used Pro Tools - all I have heard is that its ingrained deep into the music business, almost irremovably, but that it is far from cutting edge, and is outgunned on many fronts by plenty of other DAWs.

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited January 2019
    Snap said:

    Never used Pro Tools - all I have heard is that its ingrained deep into the music business, almost irremovably, but that it is far from cutting edge, and is outgunned on many fronts by plenty of other DAWs.

    I have a lot to say about Avid's business model, about some of their choices but to say they are outgunned is simply not accurate.
    They are the dominant professional DAW by some way.

    What is true to say is in the hobbiest areas you do get more for your money with other DAW's.
    You can buy 6 copies of Logic for what it costs for Pro Tools Ultimate.
    Once you get into HDX you will have spent £10k minimum and if you want to get into the S6 control surface you will have spent $60-100k.
    It is expensive on a level that used to be preserved only for analogue consoles and tape machines.

    It is still cutting edge in some areas- surround sound, audio post, hardware integration is on another level compared to most DAW's.

    The thing is most people posting on forums don't have a need for, or do not understand the need for, these ways of working.

    I was working in an audio post facility last week.
    We used nothing other than Pro Tools & Media Composer, with an S6 console.
    It works and is really slick.

    Yeah, you might not have the best midi functionality, and you don't get loads of free plugins and presets.

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  • octatonic said:
    joeyowen said:
    Am I missing something in regards to the drum editor

    Most place use 3rd part anyway, so why does pro tools need one?

    (Honestly, I might be missing what you mean)
    You are right, to a degree.

    But if you started in Cubase it is a feature that you get used to and when you switch to a different DAW you will notice it missing.
    Logic doesn't have a drum editor either, fwiw.
    I'll give you that Beat Detective is still the best way to quantise live drums but Logic does have a drum editor
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    What octatonic says is spot on. If you're a hobbyist recording MIDI projects, virtual instruments, small band sessions and so on, then you can use whatever DAW you like, they'll all be more than capable.

    If you're recording a symphony orchestra with 80 mics at 96kHz and mixing down in surround for the latest Hollywood blockbuster... not so much.

    For me, the basic audio editing in Pro Tools is also way more intuitive than any other DAW (although Cubase sort of incorporates a version of it in the Range Selection tools).

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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    I watch a lot of Spitfire vids,  Christian appears to compose individual pieces in Logic, but uses PT in the background, at the same time, to co-ordinate the overall project.
    Logic is great as a creative source, Drummer track is fun, I appreciate the fact that fixed studios, with integrated desks use PT, and post work-uses PT, they all use PT, but the original question was what would you recommend?
    If you work in a big studio-or have to work with the film TV industry, you have to work with what they use.
    If you work for yourself--whatever you use, you will have to generate PT compatible stems, simple as that, you don't have to use PT, and I simply cant get on that outdated bandwagon.
    Logic is great, but these days, HMMM 
    its the 21st century, and those guys are dinosours really, any DAW has limitations--whether it is MIDI, hardware compatibility or financial.
    I wanted to record my band at rehearsal, I tried a Zoom R16-8 mic inputs, into a 4g ram PC running W10, with Reaper, It worked.
    All the tracks can then be put in PT, which I did, but then I realised--why??
    What i wanted to do, I did in Reaper.
    Its all about what you need--if I wanted to do the same thing in PT, I would need a PT compatible interface, with a PT system, with an Ilok, just to record.
    Jesus, Reaper runs off a USB, 
    If I was building a studio--to work on sessions, I would have to have PT i guess, but I wouldn't use it by choice.
    If i was recommending a general use DAW, I would recommend Reaper.
    I would work with anything, from any DAW, all I would ask for is --stems,
    then I would work in Reaper, seriously, then I would create stems, which are PT comp,
    'industry standard' is a bit like saying--you have to have a Ferrari to use the road.
    Sure, some people can afford to drive Ferrari's, but a Ford escort will do the same journey-might be more economical too.
    YMMV,
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    I think it might be your view of Pro Tools that is out of date, not the program itself. It will work with any third-party audio interface that has a Core Audio or ASIO driver, just like all the other DAWs. And you will need an iLok for 80 percent of the plug-ins on the market today anyway.

    Yes there are a few features found in other DAWs that aren't in Pro Tools, like MPE and ARA support, but equally Avid have been ahead of the game with surround and immersive audio stuff, metering, advanced automation and a bunch of other pro stuff. And the expensive HDX systems exist for a good reason.

    I'm not knocking Reaper, it's an incredible product for the money, but (a) many of its features are basically copied from Pro Tools, and (b) it's basically a pet project funded by a squillionaire; it's not clear that it ever has or needs to turn a profit (I have no idea if it has). Likewise Logic is basically a loss leader for Apple computers now, so it's harsh to point at Avid and Steinberg and say their products are expensive just because they are not bankrolled by other aspects of a large business.


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  • Stuckfast said:
    What octatonic says is spot on. If you're a hobbyist recording MIDI projects, virtual instruments, small band sessions and so on, then you can use whatever DAW you like, they'll all be more than capable.

    If you're recording a symphony orchestra with 80 mics at 96kHz and mixing down in surround for the latest Hollywood blockbuster... not so much.

    For me, the basic audio editing in Pro Tools is also way more intuitive than any other DAW (although Cubase sort of incorporates a version of it in the Range Selection tools).

    since when was it only hobbyists that program midi instruments and record small ensembles? Id imagine that those recording live ochestras for films are in a tiny proportion of professional users of any DAW. Most orchestral scores are done with VEPro into a DAW anyway
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    just my opinion, but if we aren't making our living using PT, we're all just hobbyists, or rather recreational users, and should try and stay on top of developments as they happen, you only have to read PT expert website to see the disappointment with Avid's updates. Despite having to constantly pay for support, they are very slow on the uptake for newer features, seemingly to constantly reinforce their ties to whoever is the latest part of the Avid stable, and dropping support for anyone or anything that is not part of their universe. M series interfaces, and eleven rack for example.
    I always thought it was THE software to use, until I had to actually work with it. As a student, it was at least cheaper to try it out-with an £8 monthly subscription IF you sign up for a year.. without student discount, it is around £25 a month, if you add on a Slate subscription--which IS good value, you are looking at £40 a month to maintain a working DAW, which isn't a small amount. At least they now provide a version to try out, although heavily restricted.
    If on the other hand, you have a fixed studio, built around a desk that you are lucky enough to have working with PT, and have built it up over time-i can understand your reluctance to try anything else--if it works, don't try and fix it.
    The OP was asking for recommendations for alternatives, and maybe he thinks, like I did, that PT was the ONE, I'm not sure it is these days.
    Like I said, horses for courses.
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  • Suggesting a $600 DAW to a hobby user is just plain ridiculous.

    I've tried them all... Reaper hands down, best community, YouTube tutorials for EVERYTHING, easy to use. Not technically free but $60 isn't breaking the bank after 60 days trial (which doesn't actually end) I started with reaper thought "I'll try the more PRO stuff" always ended up going back to Reaper. 

    Also there are no ridiculous limitations on Reaper, everything works, forever.

    Throwing money at the issue wont make your mixes any better, some big ticket productions have been done with Reaper, yea they probably splashed out on plugins but still. Reaper is big in the game industry and at least one Hollywood producer uses Reaper and thought it was good enough for him to start making YouTube tutorials on the subject.
    David Farmer (The Hobbit, Ant-Man, World Of Warcraft) uses REAPER for sound design and has started making videos on the subject.
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    another of my bugbears, is the fact that PT insists on using its own format for plugins, when the original VST code, built by Steinberg, is open source, hence the multitude of free plugins available, for a long time PT would only work with their AAX versions, same with Apple and their AU version, basically just copy protection to lock down a platform.
    There are other ways to sell a good peice of software these days, Reaper is one, TDR is another, and Slate has got it just about right-good value, good product, Avid and Waves are locked together-and trying to keep up.
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