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Update: My drummer speeds up during every song. Found an App!

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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    edited May 2019
    Slip a couple of roofies in his cup a soup.

    Seriously...does he admit he's doing it and want to change? Just stop the song and start again. And again...
    Or you can make a note of the bpm for each track and have a simple drum machine in the PA for reference or chain a pair of  phones on and make him play to a click

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  • Click is the only answer.

    Bye!

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  • LebarqueLebarque Frets: 3755
    He'll take a look,  notice it's 96bpm, then half way through take another look and notice it's 110 and slow down a bit. 


    You can lead a horse to water...
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    Click is the only answer.
    Disagree, drummers are not always the problem, I can make a drummer slow down or speed up if I want to. 
    Check first who he is following and can he hear them, 2nd, watch a video of yourself playing and listen where bassist plays his notes, on before or just after the beat. Who is dominant guy in band?

    When we changed from one bassist to the next, despite bassist being far better, the rhythm was a struggle between drummer and bassist. It really upset the balance. Another drummer always slowed down, so we put a monitor with rhythm guitar up loud in the mix, never slowed down again. 
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Danny1969 said:
    I made a  light metronome rather than a click ... it flashes in the set BPM and the drummer can use that. Very effective for speeds upto 140 or so 

    ...after which point it presumably becomes a strobe?
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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    edited May 2019
    Click is the only answer.
    Disagree, drummers are not always the problem, I can make a drummer slow down or speed up if I want to. 
    This is actually very true, if a band is connected, the tempo becomes part of the whole.

    I don't think it's the end of the world if the tempo drifts slightly (for example in longer instrumental breaks) as long as it comes together again when it needs to. Depends on the music I guess.
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  • Click is the only answer.
    Disagree, drummers are not always the problem, I can make a drummer slow down or speed up if I want to. 
    Check first who he is following and can he hear them, 2nd, watch a video of yourself playing and listen where bassist plays his notes, on before or just after the beat. Who is dominant guy in band?

    When we changed from one bassist to the next, despite bassist being far better, the rhythm was a struggle between drummer and bassist. It really upset the balance. Another drummer always slowed down, so we put a monitor with rhythm guitar up loud in the mix, never slowed down again. 
    Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

    Bye!

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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    Click is the only answer.
    Disagree, drummers are not always the problem, I can make a drummer slow down or speed up if I want to. 
    Check first who he is following and can he hear them, 2nd, watch a video of yourself playing and listen where bassist plays his notes, on before or just after the beat. Who is dominant guy in band?

    When we changed from one bassist to the next, despite bassist being far better, the rhythm was a struggle between drummer and bassist. It really upset the balance. Another drummer always slowed down, so we put a monitor with rhythm guitar up loud in the mix, never slowed down again. 
    Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.
    Defo.  Can't be any other way.  The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    WiresDreamDisasters said:

    Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.
    Defo.  Can't be any other way.  The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.
    Not sure I agree with that. A really good drummer doesn't just press go and set off like a clockwork toy, they listen to the rest of the band and work together to adjust the tempo if necessary.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBM said:
    WiresDreamDisasters said:

    Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.
    Defo.  Can't be any other way.  The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.
    Not sure I agree with that. A really good drummer doesn't just press go and set off like a clockwork toy, they listen to the rest of the band and work together to adjust the tempo if necessary.
    Well, I disagree with your disagreement :)

    In one of our new songs our drummer goes from 105bpm to 160bpm for only 4 quarter notes and then back to 150bpm for the rest of the song.

    I mapped this out based on about 10 different performances we did in the practice room. He was very consistent.

    Consistency is the key. Using a click doesn't imply you never stray from the pulse, or change it altogether. It just implies that you're working on being consistent with your clocking.

    It shouldn't be necessary to monitor the tempo on the fly in case of drastic changes. The drummer should know what the hell he is doing so that the rest of the band can follow.

    A band shouldn't really be going up on stage to play Mustang Sally or whatever, and constantly starting or ending with different speeds. That just isn't professional. It's sloppy. This is completely different to having known and expected shifts in the time.

    A band also shouldn't be held to ransom by it's worst performing member either.

    I find musicians who are anti-clicks really aggravating. They love to pretend that if they did use a click, it would ruin their vibe, their jive, their groove, etc... it's bullshit. Complete bullshit. It's just an excuse to avoid work and remain as a sloppy musician.

    Fundamentally, I have high expectations for this kind of thing. Musicians get better when they practice to a click.

    Bye!

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  • With the light based metronome, maybe best to ensure no one has any susceptibility to photo sensitive epilepsy, otherwise that may not be an extra energetic drum solo he's gone into.
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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    edited May 2019
    Edit, edit, Oh b_llocks removed that cos I dont know what I'm going on about and didn't read the orig post properly....ignore. sorry folks  Keep my trap shut on this one now...coat gotten
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    Playing to a strict tempo is fine if the music being played rewards that discipline or the composition requires that approach. Having several strict tempos to keep to as part of the composition is equally fine if that's what the composition requires (the 105 to 160 to 150bpm example quoted above). 

    But it isn't always the drummers job to be the metronome that everyone else plays to. I'm playing songs where the guitar part is the timekeeper and the drummer plays around me - pushing or dragging for musical effect. I also like music where the time ebbs and flows a little according to the mood of the music and the whole band goes with it. They have to listen to each other, mind...  

    There's more than one way of playing as a band and sounding good. 

    There's definitely a million ways of playing as a band and sounding dreadful. But one persons dreadful is another persons delight. 
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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    Playing to a strict tempo is fine if the music being played rewards that discipline or the composition requires that approach. Having several strict tempos to keep to as part of the composition is equally fine if that's what the composition requires (the 105 to 160 to 150bpm example quoted above). 

    But it isn't always the drummers job to be the metronome that everyone else plays to. I'm playing songs where the guitar part is the timekeeper and the drummer plays around me - pushing or dragging for musical effect. I also like music where the time ebbs and flows a little according to the mood of the music and the whole band goes with it. They have to listen to each other, mind...  

    There's more than one way of playing as a band and sounding good. 

    There's definitely a million ways of playing as a band and sounding dreadful. But one persons dreadful is another persons delight. 
    except to second that :) 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    ICBM said:
    WiresDreamDisasters said:

    Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.
    Defo.  Can't be any other way.  The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.
    Not sure I agree with that. A really good drummer doesn't just press go and set off like a clockwork toy, they listen to the rest of the band and work together to adjust the tempo if necessary.
    Well, I disagree with your disagreement :)

    In one of our new songs our drummer goes from 105bpm to 160bpm for only 4 quarter notes and then back to 150bpm for the rest of the song.

    I mapped this out based on about 10 different performances we did in the practice room. He was very consistent.

    Consistency is the key. Using a click doesn't imply you never stray from the pulse, or change it altogether. It just implies that you're working on being consistent with your clocking.

    It shouldn't be necessary to monitor the tempo on the fly in case of drastic changes. The drummer should know what the hell he is doing so that the rest of the band can follow.

    A band shouldn't really be going up on stage to play Mustang Sally or whatever, and constantly starting or ending with different speeds. That just isn't professional. It's sloppy. This is completely different to having known and expected shifts in the time.

    A band also shouldn't be held to ransom by it's worst performing member either.

    I find musicians who are anti-clicks really aggravating. They love to pretend that if they did use a click, it would ruin their vibe, their jive, their groove, etc... it's bullshit. Complete bullshit. It's just an excuse to avoid work and remain as a sloppy musician.

    Fundamentally, I have high expectations for this kind of thing. Musicians get better when they practice to a click.
    A click is for bands (note Bands) that cant keep time, or if they are using it in conjunction with lighting effects and part of a stage show. Not against clicks, I have always looked to solve problem than mask it. 
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    Well this has been a stimulating debate but no one has recommended the kind of app I was thinking of. Maybe it's too tricky to accurately gauge just via a phone mic. 
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    Well this has been a stimulating debate but no one has recommended the kind of app I was thinking of. Maybe it's too tricky to accurately gauge just via a phone mic. 
    I don't know of an App that does what you're looking for. I use AnyTune for analysis and practice. That analyses the audio file and tells you what the average bpm of the track is, but that averages out any faster or slower bits and is calculated from the file, not in real time as you play the file back. 

    It would be difficult to build, I think. I don't know if you've ever compared your vehicle speedo against the sat nav speed when driving/riding. The speedo gives you the actual speed as it changes up and down (but over-reads). The sat nav gives you a more accurate speed over time, because it averages it out as it samples the changing satellite positions. When you accelerate, it's slow to catch up and the same when slowing down. If you cruise at a constant speed, it seems quite accurate. I think you need the same thing and it will have the same problems. What would the software use to assess the bpm? The kick drum? Snare? 

    Maybe you need another musician to sit in on your sessions and tap a metronome app in time with the band and tell you what they've found. Someone who doesn't need to stay friendly with anyone afterwards! 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26753
    I think it's more complicated than just "clicks are good" or "clicks are bad".  They're absolutely necessary for the sort of shows that U2 or Coldplay or Muse do - it would be fucked if they weren't in time with the light show.  Equally there's no click behind Back in Black, or Nevermind, or Revolver, or Exile on Main Street etc etc, and the timing on all of those is really fluid and they're all fantastic records that would almost certainly be worse if put on rigid tempo.

    I'm quite sure that practising with a click is a good thing for drummers - I'm starting to do this myself - but for recording and live it's not a case of "click tracks absolutely make music better". Clearly they'll make the timing more accurate to a predefined bpm, but they also remove an element of flow and connection between players. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not. 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    This quantized john bonham video neatly shows the dangers of too strict a time keeping. Sort of rock vs disco analogy:
    https://youtu.be/hT4fFolyZYU
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 9098
    There’s one song we do live where we have a few samples going, all triggered by the drummer, all from the start of the track through to the end.

    he has a little flashing light on his sampler that pulses the tempo...

    it sucks all all of the soul and feel out of the track... all of it... we may as well be miming... we can’t stray off of that click... it’s stiff and turgid!...
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