The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fret, one aspect that is often brought up are university league tables. The Germans don't have many in the top 100: we do. Now some folk use that to say how superior our education system is. Now despite the lack of world rated universities in Germany, they don't seem to suffer that badly, perhaps because they have the immigration systems in place to attract good people from overseas. But it sounds from what you've said about Germany and from articles I've read that Germany does actually invest in things for that middle ground a lot more than we do over here, from education to transport. 

We do have top universities, but if you look at those in the top 10 a proportion of the students come from abroad - that helps the ranking. The UK is great at R&D and discovering things, but poor at making money out of them. The German education system is basically the old British model of academic schools, technical colleges, colleges, polytechnics and universities for the academic. Outside the top universities our education system is underfunded, lacks focus and isn't as integrated as the German system. The UK is slipping down the world rankings - those with money can send their kids to a private school and top university.

Of course, part of the ranking system involves a certain percentage of points given for overseas students and overseas staff. What you say here does go along with what I'm thinking. The German education model offers a lot more to the middle ground than we get over here as we really do push the university system over other avenues. 

Bridgehouse

Heartfeltdawn said:

Bridgehouse said:

It's a smokescreen for the real deal with the lib Dems.

Gives the tories an excuse for watering down Brexit, Labour can't vote against it without looking like they want a harder Brexit. Hard line backbenchers get the whip and told they are out of a job in the election (which will be in a few years).

Vince is given a cabinet job as minister for eating his own dogshit and everyone is happy. 

Given that some of those backbenchers managed to get the referendum happening and ultimately managed to take down a Prime Minister with an election majority, then I wouldn't rely on even a three-line whip keeping the party in order. 

I'm not sure that increased Lib Dem membership would be happy. 

I'm not sure the Lib Dems give a fuck any more. They are drifting around desperately looking for something that can legitimise them. Having the opportunity to shout about influencing the Brexit process positively is worth more than five years of irrelevant moaning and grumbling. 

And I usually vote Lib Dem.. even I'm not sure I give a shit anymore..

Point taken about 3 line whip, but at the end of the day many Tory backbenchers value their jobs more than their morals, or the good of the country, or the economy, or their mothers it would seem

Fretwired

DUP want £2 billion .... no way May will fall for that .. Lib Dems again.

Bridgehouse

Fretwired said:

DUP want £2 billion .... no way May will fall for that .. Lib Dems again.

Ah but it's 2bn split into two easy to swallow 1bn chunks. And it's money that was allocated already, they just want it repurposed.

And they have promised to stop playing irritating fiddle music and let them play on the swings on Sunday. 

Vince will be business secretary attached to Brexit within the month.

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fret, one aspect that is often brought up are university league tables. The Germans don't have many in the top 100: we do. Now some folk use that to say how superior our education system is. Now despite the lack of world rated universities in Germany, they don't seem to suffer that badly, perhaps because they have the immigration systems in place to attract good people from overseas. But it sounds from what you've said about Germany and from articles I've read that Germany does actually invest in things for that middle ground a lot more than we do over here, from education to transport. 

We do have top universities, but if you look at those in the top 10 a proportion of the students come from abroad - that helps the ranking. The UK is great at R&D and discovering things, but poor at making money out of them. The German education system is basically the old British model of academic schools, technical colleges, colleges, polytechnics and universities for the academic. Outside the top universities our education system is underfunded, lacks focus and isn't as integrated as the German system. The UK is slipping down the world rankings - those with money can send their kids to a private school and top university.

Of course, part of the ranking system involves a certain percentage of points given for overseas students and overseas staff. What you say here does go along with what I'm thinking. The German education model offers a lot more to the middle ground than we get over here as we really do push the university system over other avenues. 

how do the foreign students help the ranking?
surely they come because of the ranking?
In my experience (on average) they get theses approved at a lower quality level than a UK student would need to achieve

anyway:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11811928/University-was-never-meant-to-be-for-everybody.-Young-people-have-been-sold-a-lie.html
 

capo4th

Fretwired said:

capo4th said:

Corbyns policies added up in theory but what about the cost to business and the brain drain as people left the UK under Corbyns hit the rich regime. 

I think you'd agree that Germany is the economic powerhouse of Europe.

Explain to me why the German corporation tax rate is 29.72 percent. The UK corporation tax rate is currently 19 per cent and even after Corbyn's proposed rise it would still under the tax rate in Germany. Tell my why I don't see Mercedes rushing over to the UK to build a factory? BMW are here because the purchased Rover Group and before that were partners supplying engines.

German companies pay a comparable amount to UK firms in terms of social security (NI in the UK) and the personal tax system is similar (German basic rates are higher).

Austerity hasn't worked and the Tories don't have a plan B. If I had been a Tory minister I'd have been on the first plane to Germany to find out how they do it. I'll pick two areas that impressed me when I worked there - education and infrastructure.

The German education system is great at producing people that German industry wants to employ, especially engineers and scientists. The road and rail systems are good and public transport in the major cities puts the UK to shame. The German government supports its industrial base. The Tories couldn't seem to care.

I have no problem with raising tax - the issue is what you spend it on. The UK needs to improve its productivity and give people the skills that businesses want so we can generate wealth. This can be done through infrastructure projects, better education, scrapping uni fees, encouraging more people to take maths, science and engineering degrees, getting the City to back start-up businesses with good ideas and giving tax breaks to companies involved in R&D. More money should be spent on research in our best universities especially in the area of green tech where we are seriously lagging.

But no, the Tories want more of the same .. cut, cut, cut until we are a poor third world country. It hasn't worked ... people are now heavily in debt.

Not really sure we should be following the German model have you been to Germany recently?

I think you also need to review the levels of investment in U.K. infrastructure in the last 10 years. Not sure where you live but London has one of the best public transport systems in the world. I used the east coast mainline a few weeks ago to Edinburgh very efficient. Most big cities in the U.K. have excellent transport systems.

Thousands of students go through university every year I deal with many of them on a daily basis they tend to want everything on a plate presented to them. 

The City is backing new start ups every day I have backed a few myself. 

The Tory benefit cuts have forced people back into the culture of work and not to be so reliant on the state. Correct me if I am wrong but that's how things should be ? 

Why are people in debt? Because they want everything now ! Right now iPhone7 Sky tv, Nike air max, designer clothes, Fender stratocaster, new cars and their children in the latest adidas track suits but they struggle to go to the supermarket and buy food are just a few examples.  

Everything on credit what happened to saving up and working hard for something? Sense of entitlement people want everything now or they want it for free.

  I agree we need to get corporation tax right. Maybe stop doing deals and just collect the correct amount would be a start.

You did not mention the amount of people that would relocate under a 45-55% Labour income tax regime?

The education system in the UK needs huge work and has done for the last twenty years hence my decision to use the private system. Class sizes too large too many different language barriers poor facilities and poor teachers. Kids are bored at many state schools in my experience of talking to parents and children at state schools because they are not being challenged. They are forced into the middle ground where it is easy to teach a large class and archive an average result.

capo4th

Heartfeltdawn said:

capo4th said:

Who are you kidding pal? 

Are you the elephant or the elephants keeper? 

exocet

capo4th said:

Fretwired said:

Not really sure we should be following the German model have you been to Germany recently?

I think you also need to review the levels of investment in U.K. infrastructure in the last 10 years. Not sure where you live but London has one of the best public transport systems in the world. I used the east coast mainline a few weeks ago to Edinburgh very efficient. Most big cities in the U.K. have excellent transport systems.

Can't agree with that statement. Our public transport and road infrastructure are anything but word class. I agree that some if it is good but it is so patchy and variable. I commute into London by rail on a daily basis, have done for 30 years - different routes, both about 25 miles in distance. The first route is a major one into Liverpool Street, I can recall the "new" rolling stock appearing 25 years ago. It's still being used now, its knackered. For the past 10 years I've used Southern....dont think I need say any more.

Sure, in London there's loads of investment going in now and for past 5 years or so but elsewhere in the country, its pretty poor compared to France / Germany and other major European countries that I've travelled in.

capo4th

ToneControl said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fret, one aspect that is often brought up are university league tables. The Germans don't have many in the top 100: we do. Now some folk use that to say how superior our education system is. Now despite the lack of world rated universities in Germany, they don't seem to suffer that badly, perhaps because they have the immigration systems in place to attract good people from overseas. But it sounds from what you've said about Germany and from articles I've read that Germany does actually invest in things for that middle ground a lot more than we do over here, from education to transport. 

We do have top universities, but if you look at those in the top 10 a proportion of the students come from abroad - that helps the ranking. The UK is great at R&D and discovering things, but poor at making money out of them. The German education system is basically the old British model of academic schools, technical colleges, colleges, polytechnics and universities for the academic. Outside the top universities our education system is underfunded, lacks focus and isn't as integrated as the German system. The UK is slipping down the world rankings - those with money can send their kids to a private school and top university.

Of course, part of the ranking system involves a certain percentage of points given for overseas students and overseas staff. What you say here does go along with what I'm thinking. The German education model offers a lot more to the middle ground than we get over here as we really do push the university system over other avenues. 

how do the foreign students help the ranking?
surely they come because of the ranking?
In my experience (on average) they get theses approved at a lower quality level than a UK student would need to achieve

anyway:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11811928/University-was-never-meant-to-be-for-everybody.-Young-people-have-been-sold-a-lie.html
 

Agree too many students doing silly degrees that won't help them get a solid career off the ground.

capo4th

exocet said:

capo4th said:

Fretwired said:

Not really sure we should be following the German model have you been to Germany recently?

I think you also need to review the levels of investment in U.K. infrastructure in the last 10 years. Not sure where you live but London has one of the best public transport systems in the world. I used the east coast mainline a few weeks ago to Edinburgh very efficient. Most big cities in the U.K. have excellent transport systems.

Can't agree with that statement. Our public transport and road infrastructure are anything but word class. I agree that some if it is good but it is so patchy and variable. I commute into London by rail on a daily basis, have done for 30 years - different routes, both about 25 miles in distance. The first route is a major one into Liverpool Street, I can recall the "new" rolling stock appearing 25 years ago. It's still being used now, its knackered. For the past 10 years I've used Southern....dont think I need say any more.

Sure, in London there's loads of investment going in now and for past 5 years or so but elsewhere in the country, its pretty poor compared to France / Germany and other major European countries that I've travelled in.

How would you compare a system that deals with the same volume of people in London on a daily basis? 

Whatbare you comparing it to? I agree further investment is required

Fretwired

exocet said:

Can't agree with that statement. Our public transport and road infrastructure are anything but word class. I agree that some if it is good but it is so patchy and variable. I commute into London by rail on a daily basis, have done for 30 years - different routes, both about 25 miles in distance. The first route is a major one into Liverpool Street, I can recall the "new" rolling stock appearing 25 years ago. It's still being used now, its knackered. For the past 10 years I've used Southern....dont think I need say any more.

Sure, in London there's loads of investment going in now and for past 5 years or so but elsewhere in the country, its pretty poor compared to France / Germany and other major European countries that I've travelled in.

I live near a town with a world class science park, aerospace industries, pharma research with a two lane motorway (the A1) which is congested, not enough homes, poor power and not enough water. Check your facts. London is part of the problem - it sucks the life out of the rest of the UK.

capo4th

I like living in London go and visit an estate agent 

Budgie

I imagine that people who don't live or work in London couldn't really give a shit if the transport system is amazing or whether there is plenty of investment or not... I definitely couldn't give a stuff. It certainly isn't mirrored in the rest of the country. 

richardhomer

Anyone hear Eddie Mair interviewing Boris on PM this evening? Comedy gold....

ESchap

richardhomer said:

Anyone hear Eddie Mair interviewing Boris on PM this evening? Comedy gold....

Indeed, he made Abbott and Corbyn sound well prepared in their "gaff" interviews ... no wonder he was kept in a cupboard during the election campaign ..... he is still our Foreign Secretary ... unbelievable

richardhomer

ESchap said:
he is still our Foreign Secretary ... unbelievable

Cannot abide the man - incompetent, arrogant, self-serving....

A living Alan B'Stard - just as funny - but for all the wrong reasons. 

capo4th

Eddie Mair was clearly asking difficult questions.

"What is the point of the prime minister?"

Boris "The point of the prime minister is to er lead the country."

ESchap

richardhomer said:

ESchap said:
he is still our Foreign Secretary ... unbelievable

Cannot abide the man - incompetent, arrogant, self-serving....

A living Alan B'Stard - just as funny - but for all the wrong reasons. 

Could be worse, we could have Gove in the cabinet .. oh wait!

capo4th

ESchap said:

richardhomer said:

Anyone hear Eddie Mair interviewing Boris on PM this evening? Comedy gold....

Indeed, he made Abbott and Corbyn sound well prepared in their "gaff" interviews ... no wonder he was kept in a cupboard during the election campaign ..... he is still our Foreign Secretary ... unbelievable

I thought he sounded identical to Diane Abbott for about 15 seconds

richardhomer

capo4th said:

Eddie Mair was clearly asking difficult questions.

"What is the point of the prime minister?"

Boris "The point of the prime minister is to er lead the country."

Mair has demolished Boris before - he's clearly highly intelligent - a quality even someone as partisan as you would presumably struggle to ascribe to Johnson.

The point is, Boris couldn't hack it, when put under pressure. Outside of the Tory party's enthusiasm for having a few token 'toffs' on their squad, it would be hard to imagine him succeeding in any other environment....