FX/Amp modelling software vs the real thing

guitarfishbay

Correct, I sold my Rectifier half stack after getting the Axe FX 2. I'm very familiar with the amp and the only thing close in modelling terms is the Axe FX 2 - which I actually prefer for recording, because it's just a bit more manageable. For playing through a cab the amp was still better, but not enough better for it to be an issue for me. I don't play instrumental music like Drew though, I'm more of a heavy rock rhythm guitarist.

Before I sold the Recto I switched back to using my Mesa 2x12 cabinet, partly out of convenience as we had no storage having switched rehearsal space (and the new place having stairs) and found I preferred it for the style I play.

The combination of powerful head and tight sounding cabinet meant I could use more range on the instrument the way I wanted with the sound staying in a tighter bandwidth - the big low end thump of a 4x12 is addictive but for recording especially I was finding it hard to translate what I was writing to a sound that works. I like to use a lot of range within riffs, and to play both a root note and a melody at the same time in places, and I find that works better with smaller cabs.

The only modeller that lets you really dial in the low end to the cab you're using is the Fractal (via the low resonance freq/Q/amount). So a combination of that, a powerful SS poweramp, and a pair of 2x12 cabinets works well for me. When I've been trying the plugins, I can't get anything close to what I can from the Fractal - the low end is in the wrong place most of the time, and the high end isn't crunchy enough without being harsh.

This phone video is a bit old, I since switched to EMGs which further help contain the frequency range and make this kind of playing clearer, but you get the idea of how I write my parts.

Drew_TNBD

Sounds pretty killer to me, I remember you sent me that video at the time and I was impressed. In truth, I never figured out why I couldn't get the same experience Clarky was getting. And I was too impatient at the time to really full explore it.

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

Sounds pretty killer to me, I remember you sent me that video at the time and I was impressed. In truth, I never figured out why I couldn't get the same experience Clarky was getting. And I was too impatient at the time to really full explore it.

I think headroom has something to do with it. IIRC you were using a lower wattage poweramp.

I got a lot more happy when I switched to using two cabinets too, especially at higher volumes I'm never really pushing the poweramp (Matrix GT1000, same as @Clarky IIRC) that way. I have a suspicion that lower wattage poweramps cant handle the initial thump of low muted notes, which require a lot more energy at higher volume - same way a 20 watt valve amp never has the authority as a 50 or 100 watt valve amp past a certain volume, even though it can get pretty close to the same loudness

guitarfishbay

Regardless I still think you'll be most happy with valve amps, the Axe FX works great for me in part because I'm looking for something close enough that I can just play - I think you look for a deeper connection from a players standpoint, it definitely makes more difference for your music anyway - your guitar is basically the lead singer of your band. I'm just the rhythm guitarist

Freebird

I've used software based amps for many years, but the Kemper is on another level. The moment you plug in the jack the whole guitar comes alive. Does it sound the same as a real amp? I'm not sure, but it's good enough for me.

professorben

guitarfishbay said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Sounds pretty killer to me, I remember you sent me that video at the time and I was impressed. In truth, I never figured out why I couldn't get the same experience Clarky was getting. And I was too impatient at the time to really full explore it.

I think headroom has something to do with it. IIRC you were using a lower wattage poweramp.

I got a lot more happy when I switched to using two cabinets too, especially at higher volumes I'm never really pushing the poweramp (Matrix GT1000, same as @Clarky IIRC) that way. I have a suspicion that lower wattage poweramps cant handle the initial thump of low muted notes, which require a lot more energy at higher volume - same way a 20 watt valve amp never has the authority as a 50 or 100 watt valve amp past a certain volume, even though it can get pretty close to the same loudness

This 'headroom' is exactly what I've been saying for years when it comes to authoritative high gain tones at moderate volume. 
50w Valve is as low as I'd go wastage wise despite mostly never running the amp higher that 2-3. 

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Sounds pretty killer to me, I remember you sent me that video at the time and I was impressed. In truth, I never figured out why I couldn't get the same experience Clarky was getting. And I was too impatient at the time to really full explore it.

iirc, we A/B'd my left and right sides using the same amp [cos your presets only used a single amp] in the Axe and found that my cabs, although the same make and model sound similar, but not exactly the same..
and we concluded that the magic sauce was in the differences between these cabs

which is why, even if I don't need big volume, I still have 2 4x12 cabs on my tech rider when playing overseas

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Fretwired said:

Drew_TNBD said:

professorben said:

My take is. 
Does it matter?
Take 10 60's Twins, they will all have a slightly different sound due to component drift, how they have been cared for etc etc. 

If it sounds good, tick!
if it also feels good, bonus tick!!

Yeah definitely this. That's why to some extent comparing modellers to one another is a bit pointless.

However .. I think what @guitarfishbay is doing is valid. He has the amps, an Axe-fx and is looking at using software sims with an idea of the sound and dynamics he's after. That's why I won't slag off Helix Native or Amplitube or S Gear. It's down to what you want. I like the Amplitube Fender amps - someone else will prefer the Helix Fender amps. That's OK. Being able to try different bits of software is really useful.

You like Helix and it does what you want - I respect that. I've heard your tone and it's good and suits the style of music you play. I'm more a blues/jazz kind of guy.

I think you might be confused. Max doesn't have any amps anymore, he just has the Axe FX and a Matrix SS poweramp, and two 2x12 Mesa Boogie recto cabs. It's a rig I really want to play through, because I'm very curious about it. Clarky has a similar setup but he uses two 4x12 Marshall cabs. When I played through that rig, it sounded very amp like.

But when I had an Axe and a Marshall Valvestate poweramp, I couldn't get it to sound as good as my real amps.. which was a bit of a kick in the balls.

I use the Helix just for effects 90% of the time. I use the amp modelling for demos at home, but would prefer to record with a real amp. When you've got choices like these, it would be silly not to!


I certainly don't need to spend money on amps anymore!! Maybe cabs....

it's official... I totally fkn adore this pic...

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Sounds pretty killer to me, I remember you sent me that video at the time and I was impressed. In truth, I never figured out why I couldn't get the same experience Clarky was getting. And I was too impatient at the time to really full explore it.

I think headroom has something to do with it. IIRC you were using a lower wattage poweramp.

I got a lot more happy when I switched to using two cabinets too, especially at higher volumes I'm never really pushing the poweramp (Matrix GT1000, same as @Clarky IIRC) that way. I have a suspicion that lower wattage poweramps cant handle the initial thump of low muted notes, which require a lot more energy at higher volume - same way a 20 watt valve amp never has the authority as a 50 or 100 watt valve amp past a certain volume, even though it can get pretty close to the same loudness

yes I use a GT1000FX for that very reason.. headroom..
I never run my backline hard.. I want it to be "too big" so I never have to

tone wise, even in mono to the power amp, one cab will never sound the same as two side by side

Clarky

Freebird said:

I've used software based amps for many years, but the Kemper is on another level. The moment you plug in the jack the whole guitar comes alive. Does it sound the same as a real amp? I'm not sure, but it's good enough for me.

the Axe has over 200 amp models in it.. many of which I've never even seen in person let alone played though..
don't stop em sounding great though..

for example.. I have never ever seen a Carol Ann Tucana 3 in the flesh..
but in my live rig I use it for my clean tones... cos it is utterly beautiful

Teetonetal

I find the modelled / based on nothing more than a point of reference. Whether or not the model is 100% accurate is pretty irrelevant. Does it sound good and does the sound inspire me are much better questions to ask.

Amplitude makes a big thing of its official tie ins but the product IMO does not hold up. If your are buying based on the tie in names alone then your are gullible and daft.

TTBZ

Out of the VST ones I've tried I think S Gear 2 is the best. Guitar Rig possibly the worst and Amplitube is alright - it's the one I've stuck with for longest anyway. The free Le Pou ones are pretty decent as well.

Modeling amp wise I may be biased but I've been so impressed with the Marshall Code series. Yes the stock presets are bad but take time to play around with it and you'll get some great tones. The clean and crunch sounds have especially surprised me and I can get a JCM800 and JTM45 emulation I'm happy with which is really the only tones I'd buy a modeller for anyway. The USB recording works great as well.