The Fractal Thread

Heartfeltdawn

Will absolutely be buying. The plugin release will get more people into the Fractal ecosystem. 

menamestom

Looks good, but I'd want a trial really, like you get with UA Audio.

Thant siad, I'm on the AM4 waitlist, so won't really need a plugin, but cool they have got into that market.

sweepy

Compared to Heiix Native it is massively overpriced, it's just stuff for ppl with more money than sense...., not trolling btw I have an Axe Fx3 and love it but the pricing is insane

octatonic

sweepy said:

Compared to Heiix Native it is massively overpriced, it's just stuff for ppl with more money than sense...., not trolling btw I have an Axe Fx3 and love it but the pricing is insane

Helix Native is only cheap for people who own Helix (or some other Line 6 products)
Otherwise it is $399.

Yes there are black friday deals etc and you can find it cheaper but it has been out for ages so that is expected.

Edit: Ah I think I get you- Icons Fullerton being $299 assume there will be several other products similarly priced for different amp family- Marshall, Hot Rod, Dumble, Matchless etc. If they are all $299 then it will be *quite* expensive. 

Yes that is weird.

octatonic

I won't be getting the plugin- I have an Axe FX III and an FM9 and I prefer the minimal latency of the hardware.

I don't ever need to go back and change a guitar tone once it is designed and I do often take a dry signal for reamping, plus I can always just play the part again.

sweepy

But there is NO discount listed if you already have a Fractal product, that's why I commented about Helix native 

exocet

My guess is that additional amp plugins are discounted heavily else I can’t see it taking off. Moving to a software only offering must in part be driven by the Trump tariff landscape?

duotone

Visually it looks quite dated, especially when compared to something like Neural DSP plugins.

ToneControl

sweepy said:

Compared to Heiix Native it is massively overpriced, it's just stuff for ppl with more money than sense...., not trolling btw I have an Axe Fx3 and love it but the pricing is insane

suit yourself, I have an AF3 since launch, bought a Helix for jams a few years ago, found it 3 generations behind AF3, nowhere near AF2 even, and eventually had to buy an FM9 to replace it. If you can't tell the difference, that's fine

Aside from the amp sims, the FX on the Helix are more than 10 years behind AF3

If the plugin sounds the same for the FX, then it would be rather good

ToneControl

duotone said:

Visually it looks quite dated, especially when compared to something like Neural DSP plugins.

not as visually dated as a 1963 Vox Ac10 twin?

Catthan

I would prefer it if eventually you can build bundles of the amps and FX you want in plugs vs 'families'. 
That would be really appealing for people like me who've buying the kit for the 4-5 amps and FX missing in my collection. 
Not at that price range tho  bc a. I don't want all 30-odd Fender amps in one family (or in my case all Boogie amps) and b. bc by the time you've bought 3 famlies you're over the price of a 2nd hand AM4 - FM3 plus any latency.. 
On the latency, I do hope Cliff did some magic to make the natively running experience of the plugs somewhat comparable to the hw. 
Quality-wise, the only product I've found compares to FAS is the UAD unison plugs (input modelling ;-)) but that again is exclusive to those who can cough up for the kit AND the plug so I don't think FAS priced this unreasonably high for the quality

sweepy

ToneControl said:

sweepy said:

Compared to Heiix Native it is massively overpriced, it's just stuff for ppl with more money than sense...., not trolling btw I have an Axe Fx3 and love it but the pricing is insane

suit yourself, I have an AF3 since launch, bought a Helix for jams a few years ago, found it 3 generations behind AF3, nowhere near AF2 even, and eventually had to buy an FM9 to replace it. If you can't tell the difference, that's fine

Aside from the amp sims, the FX on the Helix are more than 10 years behind AF3

If the plugin sounds the same for the FX, then it would be rather good

My gripe is that those already in the Fractal fold get zero financial benefit if they buy the plugins, these days that’s  tantamount to sharp practice 

Gadget

sweepy said:

My gripe is that those already in the Fractal fold get zero financial benefit if they buy the plugins, these days that’s  tantamount to sharp practice 

I'm not so sure about that.

The plugins are a separate product from the hardware. You don't don't get 50% off a new Fender Twin, just because you own a Fender Strat.

I do think they'll need to heavily discount further addons, though. I'm surprised they didn't start with a 'Core' product with a selection of taster amps from different brands, then sell full addon brand packs for £50 a time as things move forward.

duotone

Gadget said:

sweepy said:

My gripe is that those already in the Fractal fold get zero financial benefit if they buy the plugins, these days that’s  tantamount to sharp practice 

I'm not so sure about that.

The plugins are a separate product from the hardware. You don't don't get 50% off a new Fender Twin, just because you own a Fender Strat.

I do think they'll need to heavily discount further addons, though. I'm surprised they didn't start with a 'Core' product with a selection of taster amps from different brands, then sell full addon brand packs for £50 a time as things move forward.

I think people are comparing it to what Line6 did for existing Helix hardware customers. 

The ‘normal’ price of Helix Native was £399 but if you owned a Helix/Helix LT etc. & registered it, then you could get Helix Native for £99.

fretmeister

duotone said:

Gadget said:

sweepy said:

My gripe is that those already in the Fractal fold get zero financial benefit if they buy the plugins, these days that’s  tantamount to sharp practice 

I'm not so sure about that.

The plugins are a separate product from the hardware. You don't don't get 50% off a new Fender Twin, just because you own a Fender Strat.

I do think they'll need to heavily discount further addons, though. I'm surprised they didn't start with a 'Core' product with a selection of taster amps from different brands, then sell full addon brand packs for £50 a time as things move forward.

I think people are comparing it to what Line6 did for existing Helix hardware customers. 

The ‘normal’ price of Helix Native was £399 but if you owned a Helix/Helix LT etc. & registered it, then you could get Helix Native for £99.

And Native has all the amps available in the Helix. Not just a selection.

I'm interested in the Fractal plugins as I seem to be collecting a lot of plugins, but unless they do a mix and match it would be about a grand just to get the 3 original big classic groups of Fender / Marshall / Vox.

Then add a bass pack and some more modern hi gain stuff and it could easily hit $2000.

With the AM4 at about £800 and the FM3 Mk2 Turbo at £1200 the "might as well buy the hardware" option comes up fast. 

It's weird. On one hand it looks like these might just push hardware sales, but on the other it seems Fractal want to try and charge more for plugins (if you take every model that a hardware unit has) but not have the manufacturing overhead of hardware units.

According to the Fractal page there are over 290 amps models. The "Fullerton" pack has 36 amps. A bit of a generalisation as some amp companies have dozens of real amps and some only have a few, but if we are generous to Fractal and say each pack will have 36 amps - then that's about 8 packs to buy at $299 to get all the amps in the hardware.

So that's about $2400.

Might as well buy the FM9 and save money.

Gadget

fretmeister said:

...On one hand it looks like these might just push hardware sales, but on the other it seems Fractal want to try and charge more for plugins...

I wonder how much of that is dictated by a desire to not piss-off all those who've bought expensive hardware such as the 'flagship' Axe FX III, if the essence of it were accepted to be say £99 worth of plugin / software + a few hundred ££s worth of hardware interface?

fretmeister

Gadget said:

fretmeister said:

...On one hand it looks like these might just push hardware sales, but on the other it seems Fractal want to try and charge more for plugins...

I wonder how much of that is dictated by a desire to not piss-off all those who've bought expensive hardware such as the 'flagship' Axe FX III, if the essence of it were accepted to be say £99 worth of plugin / software + a few hundred ££s worth of hardware interface?

Didn't harm Line 6 with Native - full price of Native is under £400 and a full fat original Helix was more than double that.

Fractal fans appear to be very loyal to the brand and Cliff can apparently do no wrong so I'm not sure the existing customers of hardware really comes into the equation that way.

A full Axe FX3 Turbo and footcontroller is the most expensive modelling unit around, and although there are cheaper units, making a full set of plugins cost the same as the big boy is mental.

Plugins that sound the same as hardware should be aimed at those who either have no need for hardware, but can also be used as a way to convince other people that Fractal hardware is worth the investment.

I had a quick look at the iLok stuff for it - only 2 simultaneous uses. NDSP has 3 automatically. Even the little things like that make it look increasingly like terrible value for money. 

The manual also says that Win10 "may function but is not officially supported" and there's going to be loads of Win10 users for years yet - not least because PC components that matter have had insane price rises.

willo

I'm a major Fractal fan who isn't fully clear on the approach but I can understand it this way:

- Fractal has historically been reluctant to move into software
- Fractal wants to protect their positioning by pricing high (TBH - I find the discrepancy between UA as a premium brand and their permasales jarring)
- Fractal wants to provide a solution to people who want snippets of their ecosystem, without undermining the flagship models

Which all seems pretty fair to me.

fretmeister

willo said:

I'm a major Fractal fan who isn't fully clear on the approach but I can understand it this way:

- Fractal has historically been reluctant to move into software
- Fractal wants to protect their positioning by pricing high (TBH - I find the discrepancy between UA as a premium brand and their permasales jarring)
- Fractal wants to provide a solution to people who want snippets of their ecosystem, without undermining the flagship models

Which all seems pretty fair to me.

I don't think it can undermine the hardware - loads of people use them or want them.

I think the plugins undermine themselves - it's a real: we will let you use our sounds but you have to provide all the hardware... and you'll have to pay us more just to get the sounds on your PC than buying our hardware costs.

$2400 ish for all the sounds + possibly the same again for a mid priced recording PC that won't stutter when running loads of plugins?

It feels like a "we don't want to do this" approach to force people to buy the hardware. Even that is bizarre as they could make loads more profit on plugins than on hardware.

I suppose we'll just have to wait until other packs come out to get a full picture. Maybe the 5150 pack will only have 3 amps (6L6 / EL34 / 50W) and cost under $10 (scaling the $299 for 36 items in the Fender pack).... yeah right.

ToneControl

sweepy said:

ToneControl said:

sweepy said:

Compared to Heiix Native it is massively overpriced, it's just stuff for ppl with more money than sense...., not trolling btw I have an Axe Fx3 and love it but the pricing is insane

suit yourself, I have an AF3 since launch, bought a Helix for jams a few years ago, found it 3 generations behind AF3, nowhere near AF2 even, and eventually had to buy an FM9 to replace it. If you can't tell the difference, that's fine

Aside from the amp sims, the FX on the Helix are more than 10 years behind AF3

If the plugin sounds the same for the FX, then it would be rather good

My gripe is that those already in the Fractal fold get zero financial benefit if they buy the plugins, these days that’s  tantamount to sharp practice 

why would I need a plugin? When I have such low latency on the hardware
1ms on basic patches, 4msec on the most complex

It would be OK if the plugins were free to existing hardware owners, but I'm not much bothered really.
When I had a Helix, i got the plugin trial, and could not find anything to use it for tbh.

Like Jim says, how often do you need to change a patch later, and who can't play the same part a second time?