Patio edging & soggy garden

thomasross20

We got a patio and path put in when we moved in but I noticed just now the edging has pulled away from the sealant and if you step on it, it moves toward the grass. Here's a pic:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B59lkNr26fmlMHc3QUdaMmR0aHdVcnltclp2aFZYb0Z1d2NN/view?usp=sharing

I think it needs (or should always have had!) a concrete mass to push it back, the opposing force:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/blocks04.htm

Anybody had this issue? Deary me, I hope I wont have a battle on my hands, it's the last thing I want!

VimFuego

most likely issue is that the ground underneath is not firm enough. Best solution, depending on how much work you want to do, is remove the blocks, dig out, say 3-4", fill in with sub base (available from builders merchants/some DIY places), compact down (can be done with hand tools, say a fence post if you don't have access to a rammer), then mortar the blocks back in to place. You want the sub base to extend beyond the block edging by a couple of inches. 

thomasross20

I watched the guys do it and it seemed pretty deep - I e-mailed them just now because I checked the edging at the back and the sub-base has been extended, with a bit of concrete as a retainer. However, plunging a screwdriver in front of the path edging at the front... it's just soil. They must have totally missed that and I hope they get round here to fix it!

thomasross20

Thought I'd add to this - the other issue I'm facing is that the garden is like a bog. Too much clay soil. It does slope away from the house but still...
I think I'd actually have to hire somebody to come round, dig it all up, put lots of drainage in and a whole lot more top-soil than what we got. Has anybody ever done this?

Budgie

It looks like it doesn’t have a haunched concrete edge... ie a strip of wedged concrete at the edge. If you push a blade to the grass side of the smaller edging blocks, is there concrete holdin the block in place? If not that is your problem. It’s not a big remedial task but Ikd be asking why it wasn’t laid properly in the first place.

spark240

Creating drainage in a boggy garden is a task....unless you create soakaway pipes which can be quite deep to be effective.   

mrkb

Is it a new build? They seem to strip off the top soil to level the ground for the build and it leaves a rice field lawn behind.

thomasross20

Budgie said:

It looks like it doesn’t have a haunched concrete edge... ie a strip of wedged concrete at the edge. If you push a blade to the grass side of the smaller edging blocks, is there concrete holdin the block in place? If not that is your problem. It’s not a big remedial task but Ikd be asking why it wasn’t laid properly in the first place.

This is exactly the issue. They did it ok on the main patio at the back but neglected to do it to the part at the front. Will see how they respond...

It's a new-build yeah.. and I can see this will.be a big task. I was going to plant a (small!) tree in memory of Sheena but I'm leaning off that until this is sorted properly..

ToneControl

thomasross20 said:

Thought I'd add to this - the other issue I'm facing is that the garden is like a bog. Too much clay soil. It does slope away from the house but still...
I think I'd actually have to hire somebody to come round, dig it all up, put lots of drainage in and a whole lot more top-soil than what we got. Has anybody ever done this?

I spent loads trying to fix this at the last house
we bought the 4 inch diameter drainage tubes, buried them in channels lined with grit, put grit on top, and sand, soil, turf.
It was improved but still soggy,

Before that, I had tried using stuff that is supposed to break up the clay to no avail. I think it was gypsum.

Look at the levels before you decide to remove anything you could put another layer on top

Another option is a few inches of sandy topsoil, or get  the top few inches taken away, and add a few tons of sandy, manured and rotted topsoil

thomasross20

I'm fainting at the prospect of all this lol..

Budgie

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Thought I'd add to this - the other issue I'm facing is that the garden is like a bog. Too much clay soil. It does slope away from the house but still...
I think I'd actually have to hire somebody to come round, dig it all up, put lots of drainage in and a whole lot more top-soil than what we got. Has anybody ever done this?

I spent loads trying to fix this at the last house
we bought the 4 inch diameter drainage tubes, buried them in channels lined with grit, put grit on top, and sand, soil, turf.
It was improved but still soggy,

Before that, I had tried using stuff that is supposed to break up the clay to no avail. I think it was gypsum.

Look at the levels before you decide to remove anything you could put another layer on top

Another option is a few inches of sandy topsoil, or get  the top few inches taken away, and add a few tons of sandy, manured and rotted topsoil

The problem with adding land drains or French drains into clay is where does the water drain to once it had emptied into the drain? For drainage to work, it needs an effective outlet. Unless you have the option to drain to something like a watercourse you are just pushing the problem elsewhere. A soakaway is a potential option but again, if in heavy clay it’s effectiveness is limited by the size of the sump and the speed at which water seeps away. 

When I was running a landscaping firm we often came up with this issue, especially with new builds, where the developers invariably dump all the crap under a couple of inches of topsoil. Where we really succeeded to largely reduce the problem was by digging and removing the top 30cm and further digging, breaking up the clay below and mixing sharp sand and ballast. Installing  perforated pipe wrapped in landscaping fabric into 20mm clean gravel filled trenches which were run to an area or areas of the garden to be heavily planted with plants that do not mind having wet roots. Good quality loam topsoil to finish. You could also just skip the drainage and lay a good depth of loam but we always added perf pipe whilst there was an easy way to install.

It is is quite a lot of work, depending on your garden size but certainly worth it.

ICBM

Sounds like you might need a more drastic solution...

http://www.classic-paving.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/block-paving-driveway-mansfield.jpg



I'm not normally a fan of paving over everything because it affects the natural drainage and stops rainfall soaking away, but given what the drainage is like in most new builds I've seen it may not make much practical difference anyway, and even getting a decent lawn to grow on the crap the builders leave behind is hard work.

thomasross20

@ICBM that's why we got a large patio out back, so we could stand outside.. lol.

@Budgie can one man do that without major tools? 

rlw

spark240 said:

Creating drainage in a boggy garden is a task....unless you create soakaway pipes which can be quite deep to be effective.   

Indeed.  Don't do it.  We were warned off it as being v expensive and v unreliable.  Eventually took the worst of the clay off and refilled with different soil.  It is less boggy now.

rlw

Budgie said:

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Thought I'd add to this - the other issue I'm facing is that the garden is like a bog. Too much clay soil. It does slope away from the house but still...
I think I'd actually have to hire somebody to come round, dig it all up, put lots of drainage in and a whole lot more top-soil than what we got. Has anybody ever done this?

I spent loads trying to fix this at the last house
we bought the 4 inch diameter drainage tubes, buried them in channels lined with grit, put grit on top, and sand, soil, turf.
It was improved but still soggy,

Before that, I had tried using stuff that is supposed to break up the clay to no avail. I think it was gypsum.

Look at the levels before you decide to remove anything you could put another layer on top

Another option is a few inches of sandy topsoil, or get  the top few inches taken away, and add a few tons of sandy, manured and rotted topsoil

The problem with adding land drains or French drains into clay is where does the water drain to once it had emptied into the drain? For drainage to work, it needs an effective outlet. Unless you have the option to drain to something like a watercourse you are just pushing the problem elsewhere. A soakaway is a potential option but again, if in heavy clay it’s effectiveness is limited by the size of the sump and the speed at which water seeps away. 

We have a soakaway big enough to loose two mini diggers in and it's a total waste of time as the water doesn't soak away as fast as it fills up.  And it's sitting on sandy soil, not the clay that was there. 

Buy Wellingtons.

mrkb

Plant rice in your paddy field- it will come in handy!

Budgie

rlw said:

Budgie said:

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Thought I'd add to this - the other issue I'm facing is that the garden is like a bog. Too much clay soil. It does slope away from the house but still...
I think I'd actually have to hire somebody to come round, dig it all up, put lots of drainage in and a whole lot more top-soil than what we got. Has anybody ever done this?

I spent loads trying to fix this at the last house
we bought the 4 inch diameter drainage tubes, buried them in channels lined with grit, put grit on top, and sand, soil, turf.
It was improved but still soggy,

Before that, I had tried using stuff that is supposed to break up the clay to no avail. I think it was gypsum.

Look at the levels before you decide to remove anything you could put another layer on top

Another option is a few inches of sandy topsoil, or get  the top few inches taken away, and add a few tons of sandy, manured and rotted topsoil

The problem with adding land drains or French drains into clay is where does the water drain to once it had emptied into the drain? For drainage to work, it needs an effective outlet. Unless you have the option to drain to something like a watercourse you are just pushing the problem elsewhere. A soakaway is a potential option but again, if in heavy clay it’s effectiveness is limited by the size of the sump and the speed at which water seeps away. 

We have a soakaway big enough to loose two mini diggers in and it's a total waste of time as the water doesn't soak away as fast as it fills up.  And it's sitting on sandy soil, not the clay that was there. 

Buy Wellingtons.

Indeed, whereas some gardens will benefit from a soakaway. It’s definitely better to pipe the water to something where you turn it into a positive. Bog garden areas, large borders of planting, trees etc are useful for this. Obviously, it depends on your garden, there isn’t a one size fits all solution.

Jalapeno

everyone's garden is like a bog at the moment - wait and see what it's like after the rain eases off for a few days.

Yes you need a retainer mass.

thomasross20

Wonder if I can dig up sections of garden a square at a time and just replace with different soil..

News regarding the patio path - the company have recognised it needs foxed and will do so within the month - yay!

VimFuego

you could, however you'd have to shift a load of soil to make it worthwhile (and even then I'm not sure it would be), and that'd mean disposing of the soil, which most likely means a skip,which cost a fortune.
Now, depending on the topography, one thing you could do, and it's something I've done a couple of times, is put in a pond or create a "bog" area that the drainage leads to. You will need a slight slope, but it doesn't need a lot, especially if you also put a slight drop in the drainage pipes.

thomasross20

Our garden does slope away and downward...