Bicycle front wheel/fork problem. (SOLVED)

skunkwerx

I think I posted about this before years ago.. but I can’t remember.. and I lost all motivation in trying to find answers..
Bu the time has come when I have the funds to try and get it sorted. 

This might be a little long but I’ll try keeping it simple. 

Its a 2017 Cannondale Trail 4 hardtail. Bought new at the time. 

The problem: 
All is/was fine and normal. 

I brake using both front and rear hydraulic disc brakes. 

I notice after braking the front disc is rubbing on the pads and the wheel looks like its moved in the forks. Its no longer dead centre inbetween each stanchion. 

I loosen the quick release. Reseat the wheel in the drop outs, tighten up. 

All looks good, wheel lines up dead centre, the disc lines up inbetween the pads with air each side, no rubbing. 

I brake again. The same issue repeats. 

The process repeats. 

Now the wheel is permanently off centre between the forks, the disc rubs the pads, and yet its seated in the drop outs fine. The qr is tight. 

So. Whats highly odd is that about 5 years ago, I bought a cheapish MTB from decathlon. 

I had this exact same issue! 

At the time I took the bike to a well reviewed local bike store, posted on cycle forums, etc. 

The local bike store fixed the secondary issue of the wheel being permanently off centre by dishing it. 

This fixed that issue, but the very next time I used the front brake, guess what. The wheels moved again. 

I took it back for a refund. 

Now its happened on a second bike, it’s clearly either something I’m doing, or something thats just eluding me. 

The first bike was a B’twin that had SR Suntour forks. 

My current bike is a Cannondale that has SR Suntour forks. 

Yep, SR Suntour are cheap/budget forks but they are on like 90% of bikes under £1000, that also have disc brakes. 

So its weird the internet doesnt throw this problem up more often right? 

Im not very technically minded, and useless at mechanics or fixing things. 

But from my research here’s what I know: 

Physics and the location of front disc brakes. 

The act of braking and the forces transferred from the pads gripping the disc, want to pull the wheel downwards. Ie. Out of the dropouts. 

The Qr nut and lever should clamp firmly enough to overcome this. 

As front brakes handle the forward momentum, they do a lot of work, more energy is there. 

Im 200lbs. 

The front brakes probably have a hard time.

My issue with that is there are hundreds of dudes bigger than me, ride their bikes a lot more, and surely wouldnt if they had this issue? 

Or would at least post about it on the net.. 

What I’ve ascertained is: 

1. The calliper is not moving. 

2. Dishing the wheel fixes the secondary problem but not the root cause. 

3. The wheel/hub must be moving in the dropouts. 

4. The QR is done up tight as fuck. 

5. When I come off the brake, the pads retract normally. 

6. The axel is not too long. 

People say that the lawyer lips would stop the wheel coming out fully.. but this isnt much reassurance, as surely this shouldnt happen in the first place? 

Here are some pics showing stuff: 

Notice the paint in the drop outs has come off. 

Could this indicate movement? 

Could it also be making things worse? 

My thought is that now the QR nuts havent got a fully flat surface to tighten against, which surely could cause a loose wheel? 

The nuts have teeth that bite into the paint/drop out as normal. 
When tightening I can feel the nuts line up with their imprints in the dropout. 





Above is how the wheel now sits. I’m guessing, and this is a guess from my limited knowledge, that whatever is happening that is causing the front wheel to move or become loose, is also messing up the dish of the wheel. 
Which is what causes the wheel to now sit in the dropouts weirdly.

You can see where I’ve circled, the gap between tyre and fork is not the same each side. 

Its slight, but wasnt like this before.
The disc also sat perfectly between the pads. 

It doesnt now.

So. Really I’m not sure what to do. 

I’m taking it down to a bike shop in Canvey on Saturday. Not that local to me but my mum n stepdad have had good service there. 

I emailed them but as expected they need to see it and keep it a few days to look into. 

Thing is, I fear any kind of ‘fix’ won’t last, and it will begin happening again. Which is a waste of time and money. 

I suppose it doesnt help that we can’t pin down what the actual problem is.

I keep thinking about sucking it up, and having someone fit a new pair of forks with a thru axel (which don’t have drop outs?).. I’d also need a new wheel/hub to be compatible.
Then not even bother fitting the front brake again. Its not like I ride hard or fast.

Thats gonna be another headache. Finding a pair of forks that will fit.. 

I roughly estimate that could be a grand odd for parts and labour.
A grand could buy a decent new bike, but they all seem to have suntour forks with dropouts at that price point. Some don’t obviously.

Anyway, thanks for reading. 

If anyones got any ideas at all, I can take them along with me to the bike shop on Sat when I discuss it with the fella there.

roundthebend

Could it be a bad QR skewer? Or the incorrect type to match your drop outs? I don't exactly know about this other than that there are different styles and lengths.

Any chance the skewer is damaged or the springs have been put on wrong? Seems unlikely of a bike shop didn't fix that.

skunkwerx

roundthebend said:

Could it be a bad QR skewer? Or the incorrect type to match your drop outs? I don't exactly know about this other than that there are different styles and lengths.

Any chance the skewer is damaged or the springs have been put on wrong? Seems unlikely of a bike shop didn't fix that.

Well skewer should be fine, was the one that came as standard on the bike. Though I have heard people mention closed cam skewers are better, though I’m not sure in what way particularly. 

But I sort of dismissed the skewers as I figured seeing as this exact same issue happened on a previous bike too, its gotta be something more.. 

Though the skewers/nuts could be key thinking about it, as they are whats holding the wheel in place..

drofluf

A few things come to mind. 

Try putting the wheel in “backwards” with the disc on the wrong side. If the offset with respect to the forks is the same it would suggest a problem with the forks, if it’s reversed then the wheel is probably the problem. 

Have you got a different wheel that you can try?

Have you tried re-aligning the callipers?

its a 5 minute job. Slacken the bolts on the adapter, put the brake on so that it grips the disk and tighten the bolts. 

That won’t solve the wheel being off centre in the forks but should mean that the calliper is centred with respect to the disc.

the_jaffa

Closed cam skewers are definitely better. Partly because they’re closed (keeps the crap out and keeps grease in so they have less resistance to being closed tightly) but almost more importantly because the cam is much smaller to allow it to fit in the enclosure. This means the cam contact patch is smaller which reduces friction and again allows them to be done up tighter more easily. 

Both of these things mean that you can tighten the skewer up much tighter which clamps the wheel better and more securely. In my experience (more than 10 years as a professional bike mechanic and 35 years plus of working on my own bikes) a well done up closed-cam skewer will stop the movement. 

I would highly recommend Shimano skewers. They’re about the best there is. 

The fundamental issue though is that disc brakes geometry does cause issues with vertical dropouts on forks and can cause the wheel to try to lever out. It’s a significant part of the reason that most disc brake forks have gone over to a bolt through axle; the negate the issue completely as well as stiffening the front end up. 

MooseAboot

Can you describe the process by which you are mounting the wheel? 

i ask because you are describing turning the QR until the nut fits into the notches created.  There shouldn’t be notches, so I think herein lies the problem.  And QRs arent designed to be tightened in the traditional sense.   Certainly not to the pint where you  are indenting the alloy of the fork dropout with the steel of the QR nut.  They have a lever action which secures the wheel.  The nut needs to be just tight enough to let the lever do its thing.

I would take it into a good shop for appraisal.  New forks, 300.  They’ll probably fit them for free.  Its not a big job.  And cheaper than dental work for sure.   Good luck!

skunkwerx

the_jaffa said:

Closed cam skewers are definitely better. Partly because they’re closed (keeps the crap out and keeps grease in so they have less resistance to being closed tightly) but almost more importantly because the cam is much smaller to allow it to fit in the enclosure. This means the cam contact patch is smaller which reduces friction and again allows them to be done up tighter more easily. 

Both of these things mean that you can tighten the skewer up much tighter which clamps the wheel better and more securely. In my experience (more than 10 years as a professional bike mechanic and 35 years plus of working on my own bikes) a well done up closed-cam skewer will stop the movement. 

I would highly recommend Shimano skewers. They’re about the best there is. 

The fundamental issue though is that disc brakes geometry does cause issues with vertical dropouts on forks and can cause the wheel to try to lever out. It’s a significant part of the reason that most disc brake forks have gone over to a bolt through axle; the negate the issue completely as well as stiffening the front end up. 

Ahh cheers matey. 

This is reassuring about the bolt through. 

Replacing the forks with better ones that are also bolt through and upgrading the wheel at the same time was what I was erring on the side of doing, if it’s possible. 

drofluf said:

A few things come to mind. 

Try putting the wheel in “backwards” with the disc on the wrong side. If the offset with respect to the forks is the same it would suggest a problem with the forks, if it’s reversed then the wheel is probably the problem. 

Have you got a different wheel that you can try?

Have you tried re-aligning the callipers?

its a 5 minute job. Slacken the bolts on the adapter, put the brake on so that it grips the disk and tighten the bolts. 

That won’t solve the wheel being off centre in the forks but should mean that the calliper is centred with respect to the disc.

So I popped the wheel in backwards. 

Its massively off centre, a lot more so than when its the right way around but this time in the opposite direction, so closer to the other fork leg now. 

I’m thinking the repeated act of braking thats causing the wheel/hub to move in the drop outs, then reseating the wheel etc and doing it all again, is also messing up the dish of the wheel over time. 

No unfortunately no other wheels to try here. 

I have realigned the callipers, although not recently, but when the issue first began. 

Like you say it solved the brake rubbing but the wheel was still sat off centre in the forks.

Thing is a couple of brakes later while riding and the entire issue is back to square one with the wheel having moved. 

Though the good thing about disc brakes is its a great visual reference for checking to see if anything has moved. 

Quick look down and I can see the pavement through the calliper, between each side of the disc and the pads. 

Soon as the gaps between disc and pads change, I know somethings shifted somewhere! 

Headphones

I'd take a guess at the wheel  bearing set up.

If you've a modern sealed ball race there, most cycle techs seem unfamiliar with the basic engineering aspects of them (being taught cup and cone), so either preload them (for an early failure), or leave them free to float between the lock nuts - which is what I suspect's hapenning here.

When you centre the wheel, you're moving the wheel laterally on its axle.  When braking it has the potential for a bit of lopsided force on application and release (healthy hydraulics should be the same once applied), which will off centre the wheel and leave it there.  The leaf spring on the caliper's quite light weight, so won't push the wheel back and once off centre a tad of drag or grazing on the disc is likely (probably more noise than effect).

You may also notice the wheel displace on low speed tight turns too (such as riding through a gate or path slalom), it looks like the wheel being sloppy, but is just lateral movement.

The solution - if this is the problem - is to take the wheel out, loosen the bearing locknuts and then tighten them to take the play out of the bearing - but not pre load them.  Tighten up and all should be good.

A ball race design should really have a spacer in there too, between the inner races, but I've seen this on few cycle wheels.

skunkwerx

MooseAboot said:

Can you describe the process by which you are mounting the wheel? 

i ask because you are describing turning the QR until the nut fits into the notches created.  There shouldn’t be notches, so I think herein lies the problem.  And QRs arent designed to be tightened in the traditional sense.   Certainly not to the pint where you  are indenting the alloy of the fork dropout with the steel of the QR nut.  They have a lever action which secures the wheel.  The nut needs to be just tight enough to let the lever do its thing.

I would take it into a good shop for appraisal.  New forks, 300.  They’ll probably fit them for free.  Its not a big job.  And cheaper than dental work for sure.   Good luck!

Its actually been so long since I’ve done it but: 

I think I would insert the axel. 

Keep the lever open. 

Screw on the nut on the opposite end, making sure the springs are the correct way around first. 

I’d screw the nut on until it touches the dropout. 

Then close the lever the other side. 

If it closes way too easy, I’d open it again, tighten the nut the other side a little, then close the lever again. 

If its too hard to close I’d loosen the nut the opposite side and try again. 

skunkwerx

Actually just browsed new forks by the likes of Rockshox mainly but also Fox. 

A lot of them pictured have thru axles. 

But the descriptions dont mention much about it.. 

Its either 9mm Qr (is that still a thru axle?)
Or 15x110 or something. I have no idea what that means. 

I also see the word Maxle a lot..
Whats a maxle? Lol. 

I don’t mind going a bit overkill tbh if a new fork set up with a through axle will solve the issue. 

At the same time I know i’d have to replace the wheel with a compatible one and also probably the disc brake rotor etc but thats fine, as I can upgrade there as well and hopefully that will solve any hub bearing thingymajigs too.. 

But I think I need to do some proper research and talk to some shops as I’m not really sure what I’m looking for. 

I think from memory the current forks are 120mm travel, but I will have to check that.. they could be 100 or 110.. 

Wheels 27.5 or 650b is it? 

As for tapered top bits and measurements.. God only knows!

Obviously the rear wheel is fine staying as it is. 

Hmmm. 

the_jaffa

skunkwerx said:

Actually just browsed new forks by the likes of Rockshox mainly but also Fox. 

A lot of them pictured have thru axles. 

But the descriptions dont mention much about it.. 

Its either 9mm Qr (is that still a thru axle?)
Or 15x110 or something. I have no idea what that means. 

I also see the word Maxle a lot..
Whats a maxle? Lol. 

I don’t mind going a bit overkill tbh if a new fork set up with a through axle will solve the issue. 

At the same time I know i’d have to replace the wheel with a compatible one and also probably the disc brake rotor etc but thats fine, as I can upgrade there as well and hopefully that will solve any hub bearing thingymajigs too.. 

But I think I need to do some proper research and talk to some shops as I’m not really sure what I’m looking for. 

I think from memory the current forks are 120mm travel, but I will have to check that.. they could be 100 or 110.. 

Wheels 27.5 or 650b is it? 

As for tapered top bits and measurements.. God only knows!

Obviously the rear wheel is fine staying as it is. 

Hmmm. 

There is a lot explain as a follow up to that post but I think the best course of action is for you to find a good independent bike shop and get some advice and help. Ask them to have a look at your current set up and explain the options to you. 

Assuming nothing on your current setup is actually damaged beyond repair (which sadly it sounds like it might possibly be) then there is no reason that with a properly adjusted, good QR skewer it shouldn’t work fine.

Getting into replacing bits can be tricky due to the number of compatibility options and where that leads. A good shop should be able to advise you as to the options etc though. 

duotone

Was watching a Francis Cade YouTube video & a mobile mechanic came out to visit him in his estate car & mobile workshop. Not sure of prices but can dig out that video & a link to his website if that would be any use to you?

skunkwerx

duotone said:

Was watching a Francis Cade YouTube video & a mobile mechanic came out to visit him in his estate car & mobile workshop. Not sure of prices but can dig out that video & a link to his website if that would be any use to you?

Cheers man. Yeah could be indeed. I’ve got a few local bike places lined up to get some quotes and general impressions of what can be done, but yeah mobile one could always come in useful I’m sure! 

duotone

Starts @ 2:35mins.
https://www.instagram.com/brownsbikes.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/brownsbikes.co.uk
https://youtu.be/HdNgVLV4RSg

jonnyburgo

When braking what side of your mouth do you stick your tongue out a bit?  Try the other side next time, i mean I'm no expert but...

skunkwerx

Little update on this. 

I took the bike in to a place on Canvey Island today. Well I didnt go in, it was all discussed outside at distance which was good. 

I explained the issue, the fella said its not actually uncommon and seemed a little reluctant to take it in to see what can be done, as he said basically its hit and miss whether it will remedy it, especially as now its happened loads, things could be worn or making it worse or more likely to happen. 

He seemed in agreement its a disc brake/dropout issue. 

This was good though because I feared spending time and money on fixes that wont last. 

So I mentioned changing the forks and he agreed its the only sensible option if I wanted to go that route to hopefully cure the issue. There was no pressure to. 

I expected sums of around £600-£700 odd. 

But he said really its likely to come to £360 approx. 

He recommended the Rockshox Judy forks. 

Presumably because they are at the affordable end of the bolt thru options. 

Price was for the forks, rebuilding the wheel with a hub that will work with bolt thru and sorting me brakes out.. mineral oils gone crap! 

Pretty happy with that. 

Only issue is, from looking he said the top part is straight not tapered? Most modern bikes have tapered top sections so choices could be limited, and he mentioned parts are bloody hard to get atm, so he’s gonna have to look into it. 

Im open for spending a bit more on forks higher up the ranks too. So we’ll see. 

Hopefully it gets sorted and I’ll be back on the bike!

skunkwerx

Well picked it up today. 

£400 but the forks were replaced with Rockshox Recon air forks, 120mm travel with lockout.
15mm thru axle. 

The store rebuilt the front wheel with a Shimano thru hub and also bled/sorted the brakes. 

Hopefully... hopefully its all sorted now!

And an unwell lil doggo... 

Old vs new for comparison.

Kittyfrisk

Glad you got your bike sorted (for a very reasonable price too).
Now go look after your adorable poorly pup, that is far more important.

skunkwerx

Kittyfrisk said:

Glad you got your bike sorted (for a very reasonable price too).
Now go look after your adorable poorly pup, that is far more important.

Ah cheers bud! 

He’s my mums so I’m just a step in companion! 

Been to the vets and he’s on some probiotics.. he has IBS basically. On the all natural raw stuff I believe, but its flared up. 

Been trying to smuggle him out for the past couple years... to no avail haha..

the_jaffa

Make sure you keep checking that the axle is fine up. Before every ride ideally. They have a tendency to come loose as there is no canning action to keep them done up. It’s worth making sure it is lubed too; you don’t want it seizing

Strangefan

You did the right thing, those forks are a good upgrade, and will last a life time, nice work