Blackstar Studio 10 6L6 vs Supro Blues King 12

HAL9000

Anyone compared the two?

I’m very pleased with my Studio 10 6L6 but wouldn’t mind a bit more headroom/volume.

Now the Blackstar is rated at 10W and the BK12 is rated at 15W. However both have a single 6L6 in the power stage so I’m wondering if 15W is, perhaps, being a little optimistic and it wouldn’t actually be any louder.

Yet to try a BK12 but would welcome opinions (or even other suggestions that would give a similar sound). Not keen on a Fender Blues Junior - they have a certain ‘harshness’ to their sound that I don’t like plus I know people who have had some major reliability issues with them.

Another possibility might be to just run the Studio 10 through a better speaker than the fitted Celestion Seventy-80.

(Budget is up to £700 ish)

gjonesy

Speaker swap sounds the cheapest option and (according to wiser folk than me) has a significant effect on tone
I'm not sure how well regarded the seventy-80 is, but someone here (again wiser than me) should chip in with a speaker suggestion with a better sensitivity

ecc83

I think folks here have said in the past that the 70/80 is a bit "meh" but basically ok. The G12H(55) has a higher sensitivity* of 100dB/W/mtr  and more than adequate power handling at a very conservative 30W.

If they really are getting 15W from a single 6L6 then it must be running bloody hot! But then I just don't like SE amps!

*This seems to be a 'limiting condition' for 12" guitar speakers and I am deeply suspicious of any company that claims a much higher figure.

Dave.

UnclePsychosis

Inevitable "Hot Rod Deluxe?" suggestion for headroom at that budget... 

But I think if the question is "I like this amp, just want slightly more headroom" then a different speaker might be the answer. 

ICBM

The Seventy/80 is 98dB. Some of Celestion’s other models - eg the Alnicos, G12H-30 and V30 - are 100dB. A speaker which is 2dB more efficient will make very slightly more difference to the headroom than an extra 50% output power, even if genuine.

To me, the Seventy/80’s quite bland, flat character makes it sound less loud than its rating as well, compared to one with a more dynamic and/or aggressive tone.

I would probably pick a G12H-30 for clean headroom, but if you can afford it an Alnico Blue would probably be even better - they’re the same sensitivity on paper, but the Blue sounds louder to me. The V30 is very loud, but also has a slightly dirty aggressive midrange tone that may not be what you're after.

I also agree with Dave that any claim for over 100dB probably needs to be taken with a pinch of salt... for example Eminence claim 103dB for the Red Fang - but it’s no louder than the Celestion Blue. The only ones I know of which seem any louder are the Electro-Voice EVM, Celestion Sidewinder and Century (first model, not Vintage) and Peavey Black Widow, and even those are marginal, around 101dB.

PhilKing

The Eminence Wizard is also ~103dB sensitivity, but I can tell you that it is loud.  I have a friend who uses a 2x12 with an East Studio 2 (a 2 watt amp by Jeff Bober of Budda fame).  He was playing a gig in NYC with his band and the house engineer asked if he could turn his amp down.  I know that other people use them for gigs too.

I've also seen it myself when I swapped out a Celestion with a 94dB sensitivity for an Eminence with a 100.2dB sensitivity and couldn't believe how much louder it was.

HAL9000

ICBM said:

The Seventy/80 is 98dB. Some of Celestion’s other models - eg the Alnicos, G12H-30 and V30 - are 100dB. A speaker which is 2dB more efficient will make very slightly more difference to the headroom than an extra 50% output power, even if genuine.

To me, the Seventy/80’s quite bland, flat character makes it sound less loud than its rating as well, compared to one with a more dynamic and/or aggressive tone.

I would probably pick a G12H-30 for clean headroom, but if you can afford it an Alnico Blue would probably be even better - they’re the same sensitivity on paper, but the Blue sounds louder to me. The V30 is very loud, but also has a slightly dirty aggressive midrange tone that may not be what you're after.

I also agree with Dave that any claim for over 100dB probably needs to be taken with a pinch of salt... for example Eminence claim 103dB for the Red Fang - but it’s no louder than the Celestion Blue. The only ones I know of which seem any louder are the Electro-Voice EVM, Celestion Sidewinder and Century (first model, not Vintage) and Peavey Black Widow, and even those are marginal, around 101dB.

I see that the G12H-30 comes in 8 ohm and 16 ohm versions. The amp has outputs for 8 or 16  ohm so could use either speaker - does it make a difference? (The current speaker is 16 ohm.)

The Alnico Blue (according to Celestion's website) comes in 8 or 15 - I assume that 15 is either a typo or that it's close enough?

Thanks

ICBM

HAL9000 said:

I see that the G12H-30 comes in 8 ohm and 16 ohm versions. The amp has outputs for 8 or 16  ohm so could use either speaker - does it make a difference? (The current speaker is 16 ohm.)

The Alnico Blue (according to Celestion's website) comes in 8 or 15 - I assume that 15 is either a typo or that it's close enough?

It doesn't make a lot of difference soundwise, but it's better to use a 16-ohm speaker so you can connect another cab (16 ohm, both to the 8-ohm jacks on the amp) if you want.

15 and 16 ohms are the same thing, 15 ohm is used for historical reasons on some speaker models - they were described as that before the ratings were standardised at 4/8/16 etc.

ecc83

Well, 100 "point two" dB is taking the piss! Look deeply into most speaker speccs and they are usually at best + or - 1dB more often 2dB. Then there is "experimental error" in reading the input voltage. Did they use noise? White, Pink? Candy crush?

Some years ago son got me a nothing job fixing a Peavey 130W per chan stereo amp. The right hand speaker had blown (despite being rated at 200W!) I fitted a 100W Celestion, can't recall the exact number (had a K in it?) rated at 100W but being 16 Ohms thought it would live a time? Not being paid so 'eff 'um.

That 16R Celly was AS loud as the left channel Peavey!

Impecunious jazz musicians y'know!

Dave.

HAL9000

Thread resurrection...

gjonesy said:

Speaker swap sounds the cheapest option and (according to wiser folk than me) has a significant effect on tone
I'm not sure how well regarded the seventy-80 is, but someone here (again wiser than me) should chip in with a speaker suggestion with a better sensitivity

Ah, turns out a speaker swap is less easy than I’d assumed - the Seventy-80 is about 4.7” deep and isn’t far off touching the amp’s inner working. The Celestion Alnico Blue is 6.5” deep. So, unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it’s going to fit. Would probably need an external cabinet.

ecc83 said:

If they really are getting 15W from a single 6L6 then it must be running bloody hot! But then I just don't like SE amps! 

I was just browsing amps this morning and noticed that the Tone King Gremlin is rated at 5W from a single KT66 (which I gather is a 6L6 equivalent or thereabouts). So we’ve got the Gremlin putting out 5W, the Blackstar putting out 10W, and the Supro putting out 15W. Quite a difference. Is that because there’s other stuff going on in the higher-rated amps? Or because some run hotter than others? Or they don’t all use the same criteria for measuring the output? 

DrCornelius

HAL9000 said:

Thread resurrection...

gjonesy said:

Speaker swap sounds the cheapest option and (according to wiser folk than me) has a significant effect on tone
I'm not sure how well regarded the seventy-80 is, but someone here (again wiser than me) should chip in with a speaker suggestion with a better sensitivity

Ah, turns out a speaker swap is less easy than I’d assumed - the Seventy-80 is about 4.7” deep and isn’t far off touching the amp’s inner working. The Celestion Alnico Blue is 6.5” deep. So, unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it’s going to fit. Would probably need an external cabinet.

ecc83 said:

If they really are getting 15W from a single 6L6 then it must be running bloody hot! But then I just don't like SE amps! 

I was just browsing amps this morning and noticed that the Tone King Gremlin is rated at 5W from a single KT66 (which I gather is a 6L6 equivalent or thereabouts). So we’ve got the Gremlin putting out 5W, the Blackstar putting out 10W, and the Supro putting out 15W. Quite a difference. Is that because there’s other stuff going on in the higher-rated amps? Or because some run hotter than others? Or they don’t all use the same criteria for measuring the output? 

I had a gremlin and I’m sure I read having a kt66 in there pushed it to 7w or thereabouts 

ecc83

Have you checked the dimension of the Celstion Gold? I tried one and it was very loud! Supposed to have the tone of a well run in Blue?

The maximum power you can get from any valve is just under half the anode dissipation limit. Thus the 12W EL84 will deliver about 5 watts. But that power can be much less if the HT voltage is lower than usual so a 6l6 run at say 120V might only put out 3 or 4 watts.

Of course, the guitar amp scene is also littered with examples of valve being OVERUN, either at higher than spec HT, anode current or both! The old stuff could take it, new valves? Not so much.

Take a pinch of salt, look up a valve's anode dissipation spec ("Pa") and if more than hlaf that is claimed be very suspicious.

Two valves in push pull fixed bias? Another story.

Dave.

ICBM

HAL9000 said:

Ah, turns out a speaker swap is less easy than I’d assumed - the Seventy-80 is about 4.7” deep and isn’t far off touching the amp’s inner working. The Celestion Alnico Blue is 6.5” deep. So, unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it’s going to fit. Would probably need an external cabinet.

Try a Neo Creamback. The newer neo speakers seem to have a bit of an alnico-like character to them - somewhere between a ceramic and an alnico.

ecc83 said:

Have you checked the dimension of the Celstion Gold? I tried one and it was very loud! Supposed to have the tone of a well run in Blue?

Celestion might try to tell you that, but it doesn’t - it sounds more like an alnico version of a V30. They’re the same size as the Blue as well.

The alnico Cream apparently sounds closer to the Blue, but I haven’t heard one yet.

ecc83

ICBM said:

HAL9000 said:

Ah, turns out a speaker swap is less easy than I’d assumed - the Seventy-80 is about 4.7” deep and isn’t far off touching the amp’s inner working. The Celestion Alnico Blue is 6.5” deep. So, unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it’s going to fit. Would probably need an external cabinet.

Try a Neo Creamback. The newer neo speakers seem to have a bit of an alnico-like character to them - somewhere between a ceramic and an alnico.

ecc83 said:

Have you checked the dimension of the Celstion Gold? I tried one and it was very loud! Supposed to have the tone of a well run in Blue?

Celestion might try to tell you that, but it doesn’t - it sounds more like an alnico version of a V30. They’re the same size as the Blue as well.

The alnico Cream apparently sounds closer to the Blue, but I haven’t heard one yet.

Should have said "Neo Gold" re dimensions and "loud" was my reference to tests I did some years ago against I think a Goodmans. Rated at 100dB/W/mtr anyway.

Dave.