NAD - something different...

downbytheriver · July 2020

Stewart Ward of Award Session and Sessionette fame has been at it again... after coming up with the Blues Baby a few years ago (essentially a solid state Blues Junior) which I bought but didn’t really get on with, he has to followed up with a solid state amp inspired by the 5E3 Deluxe! As a previous owner of various 5E3s, including a Lazy J and a Victoria, I was interested to see what this was like. It should be said upfront that this amp is offered with various options (fx loop, power options, cabinet options, speaker sim DI output based on the JD10 from way back) but I went with the most basic - 22 watt, no cabinet (like the Blues Baby it fits straight into a Blues Junior cab), no loop, no DI.

I popped it straight into a Blues Junior cabinet and fired it up (if I hadn’t had to make a baffle and fit a speaker it would have taken about 10 minutes.)

So... it sounds pretty good. Now, for me, there’s no real judging of an amp without gigging it and there’s previous little prospect of that currently, but it does seem to have essence of 5E3 in its basic tone. It has a 7 or 22 watt power selector and a fat switch as standard but I concentrated more on the basic tone. Stewart says he was looking to get at the amp sound from early rock and roll, I’d say, early days, I can see what he’s getting at.

I’ll put it up against my Tone Master DR at the first gigging opportunity.

Teyeplayer · July 2020

Very interested to see what you make of this.

I’ve recently picked up a DR tonemaster (in part due to your praise of it) and have to agree it’s a stunning amp. I’m running mine in stereo with an 18watt tmb, (which is somewhere between vox ac15 and early Marshall I guess), but have often wondered what a 5e3 would add sonically.

Look forward to a full review.

Winny_Pooh · July 2020

You're brave, my first thought seeing them was "nope". Curious to AB this with a deluxe one day.

downbytheriver · July 2020

Teyeplayer said:

Very interested to see what you make of this.

I’ve recently picked up a DR tonemaster (in part due to your praise of it) and have to agree it’s a stunning amp. I’m running mine in stereo with an 18watt tmb, (which is somewhere between vox ac15 and early Marshall I guess), but have often wondered what a 5e3 would add sonically.

Look forward to a full review.

This might turn out to be an excellent usage - I was thinking about a wet/dry rig with the DRTM as the dry side and the 5E3 Extra as the wet (modulations, with the drives all going straight to the DRTM, except for the preamp). Not sure I've got a stereo pedal to split them at the moment.

Sessionman · August 2020

Hidownbytheriver said:

Snip... "I’ll put it up against my Tone Master DR at the first gigging opportunity."

TBH, there would be little point in comparing 5E3-EXTRA with a DR type amp, as they are completely different tones from different amp eras! Not even I would expect them to sound too similar.

5E3-EXTRA has a single knob TONE control, where the DR has the much later TWO knob EQ. Single knob TONE controls don't suck the mids, whereas the later TWO and THREE knob EQs do... and were designed to. So a completely different sound should be expected.

Hope this helps Stan... Stewart.

Modulus_Amps · August 2020

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

Sessionman · August 2020

Modulus_Amps said:

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

TBH It does say on our website, that 5E3-EXTRA is not intended as a direct clone. SESSION does not make clones. It is a modern take on the 5E3 with a lot of features that most modern players would find useful and would not be possible to such a high standard on a tube amp... if at all!

The two VOLUMEs interaction was expected to be a criticism... or a 'reason' not to buy... or to diss it! But it does fulfil the basic tone of when used as the 5E3 was designed to work and it does that very well... two customers have confirmed that already after only three weeks on the market! One of those customers runs 'guitar shows' and has owned three vintage 5E3s.

We know there are people who will want that particular 'design fault' to be present, but they will probably have to go and buy a RI 5E3 "Deluxe" at around £1700! This 5E3-EXTRA starts at £379 and can be ordered with a number of very cool options that the original could not hope to compete with. 5E3-EXTRA shows the true advantages that solid state guitar amps can bring to the market place, but only when properly designed, of course.

I grew up with tubes, so know what they can do. We've also heard every word of solid state prejudice possible since 1981 when we launched our first SS amp, the Sessionette:75. Never-the-less, 5E3-EXTRA does what it says on the tin!

mattacjones · August 2020

@Teyeplayer @downbytheriver ;are you DR tonemaster guys still as keen as you were now you've had then a while?

Teyeplayer · August 2020

mattacjones said:

@Teyeplayer @downbytheriver ;;are you DR tonemaster guys still as keen as you were now you've had then a while?

Loving mine.

I’ll agree with the purists that it’s not perfect: the trem is a bit full on and could be a bit slower and subtler, and the reverb does have a slight digital artefact in the delay, and of course no spring means you can’t get that crash by hitting it. However, how many folks use a flint or similar and have exactly the same scenario?

I do however think it’s a lovely sounding amp in the classic fender blackface vein, the attenuation is very useable and it’s so light! My board is currently gathering dust as playing straight into the DR sounds just grand and puts a smile on my face. In fact, since getting the DR I have played much more guitar, that in itself probably is the best answer.

brooom · August 2020

Sessionman said:

Modulus_Amps said:

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

TBH It does say on our website, that 5E3-EXTRA is not intended as a direct clone. SESSION does not make clones. It is a modern take on the 5E3 with a lot of features that most modern players would find useful and would not be possible to such a high standard on a tube amp... if at all!
The two VOLUMEs interaction was expected to be a criticism... or a 'reason' not to buy... or to diss it! But it does fulfil the basic tone of when used as the 5E3 was designed to work and it does that very well... two customers have confirmed that already after only three weeks on the market! One of those customers runs 'guitar shows' and has owned three vintage 5E3s.
We know there are people who will want that particular 'design fault' to be present, but they will probably have to go and buy a RI 5E3 "Deluxe" at around £1700! This 5E3-EXTRA starts at £379 and can be ordered with a number of very cool options that the original could not hope to compete with. 5E3-EXTRA shows the true advantages that solid state guitar amps can bring to the market place, but only when properly designed, of course.
I grew up with tubes, so know what they can do. We've also heard every word of solid state prejudice possible since 1981 when we launched our first SS amp, the Sessionette:75. Never-the-less, 5E3-EXTRA does what it says on the tin!

No doubt you've been doing it for some time, but either I'm completely misreading this, or that's quite a snappy attitude you have there, especially considering you're responding to someone who is quite knowledgeable and in the same industry as you are.

In any case I think the amp is a cool idea, but anytime you name an amp after a classic, well know circuit, you're bound to have comparisons. No matter how much you write on the tin.

Exorcist · August 2020

brooom said:

Sessionman said:

Modulus_Amps said:

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

TBH It does say on our website, that 5E3-EXTRA is not intended as a direct clone. SESSION does not make clones. It is a modern take on the 5E3 with a lot of features that most modern players would find useful and would not be possible to such a high standard on a tube amp... if at all!
The two VOLUMEs interaction was expected to be a criticism... or a 'reason' not to buy... or to diss it! But it does fulfil the basic tone of when used as the 5E3 was designed to work and it does that very well... two customers have confirmed that already after only three weeks on the market! One of those customers runs 'guitar shows' and has owned three vintage 5E3s.
We know there are people who will want that particular 'design fault' to be present, but they will probably have to go and buy a RI 5E3 "Deluxe" at around £1700! This 5E3-EXTRA starts at £379 and can be ordered with a number of very cool options that the original could not hope to compete with. 5E3-EXTRA shows the true advantages that solid state guitar amps can bring to the market place, but only when properly designed, of course.
I grew up with tubes, so know what they can do. We've also heard every word of solid state prejudice possible since 1981 when we launched our first SS amp, the Sessionette:75. Never-the-less, 5E3-EXTRA does what it says on the tin!

No doubt you've been doing it for some time, but either I'm completely misreading this, or that's quite a snappy attitude you have there, especially considering you're responding to someone who is quite knowledgeable and in the same industry as you are.

In any case I think the amp is a cool idea, but anytime you name an amp after a classic, well know circuit, you're bound to have comparisons. No matter how much you write on the tin.

Just for a bit of balance, Sessionman's reply sounded alright to me...

*edited - I like it when owners of guitar products post in here, replying to criticism is okay in my book - I didn't read it as having a snappy attitude. Maybe that's just me though...

brooom · August 2020

I don't think there's any harm in replying to criticism. And obviously if I misread the response, I apologise, but it did read as a bit touchy feely to me, I admit. I also like having guitar product representatives use the forum, and luckily we've had two in this thread.

John_A · August 2020

Well I have an old combo cab sitting doing nothing, the chassis only option sounds like a plan

downbytheriver · August 2020

mattacjones said:

@Teyeplayer @downbytheriver ;are you DR tonemaster guys still as keen as you were now you've had then a while?

Well, not much progress due to lack
of gigs but I see no reason to change my view!

ICBM · August 2020

I really wouldn’t pick a Blues Junior cabinet as the donor if you have a choice... there’s just something wrong with them, they don’t sound good - and it’s not the speaker.

I recently tried several different speakers in a couple of them for a customer, but in the end by far the biggest improvement was changing the cabinets to proper 5E3-sized pine ones... huge difference, finally Blues Juniors that sound good

.

(The final choice of speakers were Jensen P12Qs.)

Modulus_Amps · August 2020

@brooom said:

Sessionman said:

Modulus_Amps said:

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

TBH It does say on our website, that 5E3-EXTRA is not intended as a direct clone. SESSION does not make clones. It is a modern take on the 5E3 with a lot of features that most modern players would find useful and would not be possible to such a high standard on a tube amp... if at all!
The two VOLUMEs interaction was expected to be a criticism... or a 'reason' not to buy... or to diss it! But it does fulfil the basic tone of when used as the 5E3 was designed to work and it does that very well... two customers have confirmed that already after only three weeks on the market! One of those customers runs 'guitar shows' and has owned three vintage 5E3s.
We know there are people who will want that particular 'design fault' to be present, but they will probably have to go and buy a RI 5E3 "Deluxe" at around £1700! This 5E3-EXTRA starts at £379 and can be ordered with a number of very cool options that the original could not hope to compete with. 5E3-EXTRA shows the true advantages that solid state guitar amps can bring to the market place, but only when properly designed, of course.
I grew up with tubes, so know what they can do. We've also heard every word of solid state prejudice possible since 1981 when we launched our first SS amp, the Sessionette:75. Never-the-less, 5E3-EXTRA does what it says on the tin!

No doubt you've been doing it for some time, but either I'm completely misreading this, or that's quite a snappy attitude you have there, especially considering you're responding to someone who is quite knowledgeable and in the same industry as you are.

In any case I think the amp is a cool idea, but anytime you name an amp after a classic, well know circuit, you're bound to have comparisons. No matter how much you write on the tin.

I didn't read it as been snappy, but I think you may right about the name.
If it gets the tweed classic tones as it says on the tin though then it sounds like a great deal.

I am with ICBM the BJ cab is one of the worst

Sessionman · August 2020

brooom said:

Sessionman said:

Modulus_Amps said:

@Sessionman its a great idea, but from the control layout I assume it does not have the volume control interation that a 5E3 does? that is a pretty big part of what makes a 5E3 special for some guys.

TBH It does say on our website, that 5E3-EXTRA is not intended as a direct clone. SESSION does not make clones. It is a modern take on the 5E3 with a lot of features that most modern players would find useful and would not be possible to such a high standard on a tube amp... if at all!
The two VOLUMEs interaction was expected to be a criticism... or a 'reason' not to buy... or to diss it! But it does fulfil the basic tone of when used as the 5E3 was designed to work and it does that very well... two customers have confirmed that already after only three weeks on the market! One of those customers runs 'guitar shows' and has owned three vintage 5E3s.
We know there are people who will want that particular 'design fault' to be present, but they will probably have to go and buy a RI 5E3 "Deluxe" at around £1700! This 5E3-EXTRA starts at £379 and can be ordered with a number of very cool options that the original could not hope to compete with. 5E3-EXTRA shows the true advantages that solid state guitar amps can bring to the market place, but only when properly designed, of course.
I grew up with tubes, so know what they can do. We've also heard every word of solid state prejudice possible since 1981 when we launched our first SS amp, the Sessionette:75. Never-the-less, 5E3-EXTRA does what it says on the tin!

No doubt you've been doing it for some time, but either I'm completely misreading this, or that's quite a snappy attitude you have there, especially considering you're responding to someone who is quite knowledgeable and in the same industry as you are.

In any case I think the amp is a cool idea, but anytime you name an amp after a classic, well know circuit, you're bound to have comparisons. No matter how much you write on the tin.

This reply is to everyone with great respect.

OK, apologies. And... I have been doing it for a long time, since 1967! But it was not intended as snappy at all. It was just to the point and honest... I have a little 'A' going on in my brain sadly!

Out of interest... I like change. I like different. I respect 'old school'. I won't put up with poor quality in design or manufacturing. I will not directly copy anything. I like to find better ways of doing 'traditional' things using modern techniques. I don't mind valves, but I wouldn't miss them either. So basically, I like to replace old stuff with new stuff that can closely do the things the 'old stuff' can do!

If that new amp can't do exactly what the old amp can do... it's not a bad amp... it's a new design different amp based on the old amp! If anyone really must have what the old amp does... then buy an old amp! If you want a flavour of the old amp, but anyone also needs low noise, reliability, light weight, an FX Loop, DI Out, a selection of cabinets, speakers and finishes... then buy the new amp and modify their playing to accommodate that VERY close sounding new amp! No one can have everything! It's all about attitude really, IMHO.

So yes, perhaps I do get a little 'grouchy' at times! And if it does slip out now and then... well I think I'm entitled to get a little fed up with the same old same old. Anyone should spend some time on this side of my PC and experience how nasty life can be at times. Making SS amps is a little like being a woman doing a mans job. We have to work ten times harder to be appreciated. And it's only my day job!

But, if anyone wants to criticise what I have designed, that's fine with me... but please show me the respect of taking the trouble to TRY ONE FIRST! As the OP has. Until anyone has, their argument is a little less than meaningful!

All said in an 'un-snappy' way... hopefully! I did try very hard!

Thanks for your time.

Sessionman · August 2020

ICBM said:

I really wouldn’t pick a Blues Junior cabinet as the donor if you have a choice... there’s just something wrong with them, they don’t sound good - and it’s not the speaker.

I recently tried several different speakers in a couple of them for a customer, but in the end by far the biggest improvement was changing the cabinets to proper 5E3-sized pine ones... huge difference, finally Blues Juniors that sound good .

(The final choice of speakers were Jensen P12Qs.)

You could be right there. But I don't find that to be the case. But then, I have solid state hearing, so what do I know!

But, people are re-housing their BJrs in 'different' cabinets, so there is no choice in the fact that there are going to be a fair few BJr cabinets knocking around, some unused. So, what a wonderful opportunity for anyone to install a well made, not too expensive, perfectly fitting chassis into it. A completely different amp... more tones! And it's perfectly sellable too! Why not?

Well, the only problems against it is that that chassis has SS circuitry and 'some' people are going to tell everyone that the BJr cabinet is crap to completely put them off the idea!

Now, see it from my position. How much is the BJr cabinet really crap? Or, is it more to do with 'someone' who really dislikes the thought of that chassis becoming successful? And, for what reason? Who is it hurting? No one! Maybe they should try one and see how awful/great it sounds for themselves! Is it the 5E3-EXTRA chassis or the cabinet or both that sounds so bad? A potential for a whole range of new threads! Whoopee!

FWIW... that chassis in a BJr cabinet, with a decent speaker sounds just bloody awesome!

If this sounds a little snappy, well...!

Sessionman · August 2020

downbytheriver said:

mattacjones said:

@Teyeplayer @downbytheriver ;are you DR tonemaster guys still as keen as you were now you've had then a while?

Well, not much progress due to lack
of gigs but I see no reason to change my view!

From my experience between it and the real thing... well what I think doesn't matter at all. The important thing is, that YOU ARE enjoying it and that's what you paid your £900ish for!

I had a friends real DR in for service just before lockdown. Once sorted it had a VERY pleasant sound! C12K too! So, I plugged a £239 BluesBaby 22 chassis into the DR's speaker and cabinet... and TBH, I couldn't tell any difference! I was dead chuffed! Even with power amp distortion happening!

BB is basically the same analogue circuit, but with the tubes replaced with Op-Amps and with Constant Current speaker drive, the same as a tube amp drives its speakers! Not at all surprised, frankly!

When anyone tests two amps... it really is only fair when both are played through the same speaker cabinet, like in this situation.

Sessionman · August 2020

brooom said:

I don't think there's any harm in replying to criticism. And obviously if I misread the response, I apologise, but it did read as a bit touchy feely to me, I admit. I also like having guitar product representatives use the forum, and luckily we've had two in this thread.

It is difficult to be concise and, as a result, not be misunderstood. And, any 'company man' posting here is starting from the point of suspicion from forum members. Hmmmm, why is 'he' here?

I don't see this thread or forum as an advertising opportunity... but a place where I can explain things from the designer's POV. Correct misunderstanding and, to some point, help educate. You guys do have a great interest in what we 'creators' do every day... but believe me, it not all fun! And we do see a fair amount of hate too... even more when you work with SS!

I appreciate your welcoming comments above, I accept, but don't be surprised if I see things differently to all you guys. It is, after all, work!

Sessionman · August 2020

Teyeplayer said:

mattacjones said:

@Teyeplayer @downbytheriver ;;are you DR tonemaster guys still as keen as you were now you've had then a while?

Loving mine.

I’ll agree with the purists that it’s not perfect: the trem is a bit full on and could be a bit slower and subtler, and the reverb does have a slight digital artefact in the delay, and of course no spring means you can’t get that crash by hitting it. However, how many folks use a flint or similar and have exactly the same scenario?

I do however think it’s a lovely sounding amp in the classic fender blackface vein, the attenuation is very useable and it’s so light! My board is currently gathering dust as playing straight into the DR sounds just grand and puts a smile on my face. In fact, since getting the DR I have played much more guitar, that in itself probably is the best answer.

Is it an Attenuator? Or just a switchable 'pre-set' Master Volume? After all, it is possible to get 0.5W output with a continuously variable Master Volume control... even on a Silverface MV Twin just the same! Not that it matters at all, but that is not an Attenuator in the sense the word has taken on in recent years.

The big problem is, that the human hearing does NOT work like most people think. When anyone lowers the overall volume, our hearing becomes less sensitive to the bass frequencies... so, low volume guitar playing clean or distortion on 11 will never sound anything like it does with the volume set to near hurting point! This effect was found by Fletcher & Munson back in 1933. More here: http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/Amp Tone-Volume Effects_1.pdf 

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