Well-known songs that use Modes

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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    axisus said:
    I don't get modes. I've had them explained plenty of times over the years. I don't get modes.


    ...If you are in a minor sounding song and you are soloing away in your pentatonic box then try dropping in the extra notes from the minor. If the minor sixth sounds OK it's probably Natural Minor (Aeolian), but if it sounds a bit clashy and horrid and it sounds better up a semi tone to make a major 6th then it's probably Dorian.

    Same with Major. If you feel a bit happier with the 7th being flattened it's probably mixolydian...


    That's how I learned things by ear before I knew what labels to put on things. I worked out the major and minor 5 note shapes by copying solos by Clapton, Hendrix and Kossoff etc, although I didn't know they were called 'pentatonics' at the time.

    Then I heard players putting in extra notes. For example: Wishbone Ash sometimes used 'classical' minor type sounds which were the minor pentatonic with an added 2 and b6. I called it the 'classical minor' scale until I later learned it was the Aeolian mode.  Peter Frampton used a jazz minor type sound which was the minor pentatonic with an added 2 and 6. I called it the jazz minor scale until I later learned it was the Dorian mode.

    That's how I learned by ear. Hear a type of sound, put my own label on it and try to relate it to something I already knew. Then re-label the type of sound when I discovered a more universally accepted term.

    I think of modes in terms of their intervals relative to their root note. The major and minor pentatonic patterns are useful templates, for me upon, which to build other scales. I view modes as useful labels to put on types of sound. So it's good that @viz is coming up with real world musical examples.

    This is exactly how I did it too.  Major and minor pentatonics with added "flavour" notes.  If you think about it that way it's straightforward, to my mind, anyway.  I've never been a fan of the "play C major over Dm" approach.  I like to know where my roots are.

    Also I had exactly the same experience with the 6 and b6 - slightly awkward notes to place in context but with practice you get it.  It absolutely wouldn't have helped to lumber them with big complicated Greek names.

    In the end you get used to an almost chromatic approach - perhaps with the exception of the b2, any note in the octave is available for soloing, depending on what effect you're going for and how much dissonance you can tolerate. 

    I realise this approach is not quite as helpful for composition when you want to say "this piece is in this particular key", but for freeform soloing, I find scale names unhelpful apart from when communicating with other musicians.
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  • BarnezyBarnezy Frets: 2174
    Great idea. Thanks for this! 
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  • BarnezyBarnezy Frets: 2174
    For people saying they don't get modes, I personally think half the challenge is the Latin names. Makes it sound more complex than it is. If they called it "II home", it would be self explanatory.

    As mentioned if you're in the Key of C major, but you make the II chord Dm the home, you're playing in Dorian. I guess it's a way to have the notes in a key, but not be tired to the I chord for home so you can create different flavors of the same key. 

    The more I'm learning about theory, the more I realise the freedom that exists in it. I used to think theory was about the restrictions of music, but there really are no restrictions just frameworks you can work within, but are not restricted by.

    I'm very early in my understanding, but having a teacher for the past couple of months has given me lightbulb moments that would have taken years, if at all.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Barnezy said:
    For people saying they don't get modes, I personally think half the challenge is the Latin names. Makes it sound more complex than it is. If they called it "II home", it would be self explanatory.

    As mentioned if you're in the Key of C major, but you make the II chord Dm the home, you're playing in Dorian. I guess it's a way to have the notes in a key, but not be tired to the I chord for home so you can create different flavors of the same key. 

    The more I'm learning about theory, the more I realise the freedom that exists in it. I used to think theory was about the restrictions of music, but there really are no restrictions just frameworks you can work within, but are not restricted by.

    I'm very early in my understanding, but having a teacher for the past couple of months has given me lightbulb moments that would have taken years, if at all.


    Yep. Theory is just names for stuff. Nothing to be scared of / turned off by. But also not mandatory to learn it. Useful if you want to communicate accurately about music. 

    The fancy names are Greek by the way ;)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BarnezyBarnezy Frets: 2174
    viz said:

    The fancy names are Greek by the way ;)
    Oh yes. Clearly I'm a bad student ;) 
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    Mixolydian

    Led Boots - Jeff Beck

    In fact, for years I called that group of intervals the 'Jeff Beck' scale until I found out the Greek name.

    It's not a competition.
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  • guitartangoguitartango Frets: 1012
    Can't see Gilmour asking Waters which mode are you using? It's just extra notes in a scale.
    “Ken sent me.”
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited July 2020
    Can't see Gilmour asking Waters which mode are you using? It's just extra notes in a scale.

     Yes exactly! Well, alternative notes rather than extra notes, but yes absolutely! I mean, those scales do have names, so if you're interested in this stuff you can use those names to communicate with like-minded individuals just to short-cut the discussion, and there's a vid somewhere where Gilmour talks about Dorian. But in general, yep, of course you can say "minor but with a raised 6th" if that's easier for you.

    I think what I'm trying to do with this thread is collect lots of well-known songs that we as a community personally know well, and group them into their modes, so that the people who are interested but who haven't got the hang of it yet can get some insight. 

    People who prefer, for a special reason, not to give scales a name, can ignore it.


    Mixolydian

    Led Boots - Jeff Beck

    In fact, for years I called that group of intervals the 'Jeff Beck' scale until I found out the Greek name.


    nice 1
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    viz said:
    Yes. Starting from the bottom string of your guitar, phrygian is E F G A B C D E, whereas phrygian dominant is E F G# A B C D E. 

    If s is a semitone and T is a tone, then phrygian is s T T T s T T, whereas phrygian dominant is s 1.5 s T s T T.

    The first set of notes is most often played as:

    a) chord i in E Phrygian, or
    b) chord iii in C major, or
    c) chord v in A minor. 

    The second set of notes is most often played as chord V in A minor. 

    So in A minor, depending on how you like your V (or v) chord, that will dictate whether you play E phrygian or E phrygian dominant over it. 
    The way I teach people is that Phrygian is the 3rd mode of the major scale (or 5th mode of natural minor), Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of the harmonic minor.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Barnezy said:
    For people saying they don't get modes, I personally think half the challenge is the Latin names. Makes it sound more complex than it is. If they called it "II home", it would be self explanatory.

    As mentioned if you're in the Key of C major, but you make the II chord Dm the home, you're playing in Dorian. I guess it's a way to have the notes in a key, but not be tired to the I chord for home so you can create different flavors of the same key. 

    The more I'm learning about theory, the more I realise the freedom that exists in it. I used to think theory was about the restrictions of music, but there really are no restrictions just frameworks you can work within, but are not restricted by.

    I'm very early in my understanding, but having a teacher for the past couple of months has given me lightbulb moments that would have taken years, if at all.
    'II home' isn't quite true though.
    When you're playing in Dorian mode the II of another key is the home of that mode but in that mode it is the I.
    I get what you are saying but if you are always relating back to a major scale (or harmonic/melodic minor) then you are slowing yourself down.

    It is worth investigating 'pitch axis theory'.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725

    Can't see Gilmour asking Waters which mode are you using? It's just extra notes in a scale.
    Especially not now...
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited July 2020
    octatonic said:
    Barnezy said:
    For people saying they don't get modes, I personally think half the challenge is the Latin names. Makes it sound more complex than it is. If they called it "II home", it would be self explanatory.

    As mentioned if you're in the Key of C major, but you make the II chord Dm the home, you're playing in Dorian. I guess it's a way to have the notes in a key, but not be tired to the I chord for home so you can create different flavors of the same key. 

    The more I'm learning about theory, the more I realise the freedom that exists in it. I used to think theory was about the restrictions of music, but there really are no restrictions just frameworks you can work within, but are not restricted by.

    I'm very early in my understanding, but having a teacher for the past couple of months has given me lightbulb moments that would have taken years, if at all.
    'II home' isn't quite true though.
    When you're playing in Dorian mode the II of another key is the home of that mode but in that mode it is the I.
    I get what you are saying but if you are always relating back to a major scale (or harmonic/melodic minor) then you are slowing yourself down.

    It is worth investigating 'pitch axis theory'.
    Yep. If you're playing a Dorian piece, like What Shall We Do with the Drunken Sailor, in F#, you're playing F# Dorian, F# is the i chord, and that's it. 

    If, like the person above, you want to say it's in F# minor but please play a D# instead of a D, that's fine too.

    In fact, if I were to notate it, I'd probably write it as though it were in F# minor (ie 3 sharps in the sig), then sharpen every D# as an accidental, rather than put 4 sharps in the sig. But that's because I like to enjoy the dorianish nature of it, and don't want people to think it's somehow in C# minor.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    The way I play is I use the major modes interchangeably within themselves and the minor modes interchangeably within themselves.

    It is very freeing- obviously you still have avoid notes.

    There is something I regularly do which is a dominant 7 based pattern:

    ---------------------------------------
    ----------3-6-4-3--------------------
    -------4------------4------------------
    --3-5-----------------5-3-2---------
    ---------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------

    I've presented this as a G dominant idea but two notes are out of the G dominant chord.
    The Eb/D# (2nd string, 4th fret.)
    The E (4th string, 2nd fret)

    You can think of the Eb as a b13 but it also fits into the G Mixolydian b6 which is the 5th mode of the C melodic minor mode.
    Yes, it can sound a bit 'out'.

    The E might look like it won't work against it but if you are playing a V I progression the b13 of the altered G dominant heading towards the I (in this case C major 7: CEGB).
    Although you have two notes in the line that are somewhat at odds with one another you have to think about what each note does in context.
    The Eb is there to bring tension against the G Dominant.
    The E is there to bring a resolution towards the 1 chord.

    If I don't want too much tension against the G Dominant then I'll do this instead:
    ---------------------------------------
    ----------3-6-5-3--------------------
    -------4------------4------------------
    --3-5-----------------5-3-2---------
    ---------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------

    Here it is both ways (but in A Mixolydian)- I think the first version sounds much better, but the important thing is how I am thinking about the notes, more than anything.

    https://youtu.be/3fcQ_2lAn9o
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Nice!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    octatonic said:

    When you're playing in Dorian mode the II of another key is the home of that mode but in that mode it is the I.
    I get what you are saying but if you are always relating back to a major scale (or harmonic/melodic minor) then you are slowing yourself down.

    It is worth investigating 'pitch axis theory'.

    Yes I agree, relating everything to Major harmony is very difficult to get away from after years of listening.

    To my ears, any dominant type chords sound like they want to resolve to a Major chord.

    IMO, hearing Modal harmony is very difficult, it's a very different skill than just noodling in a mode.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • The Simpsons theme tune is Lydian dominant.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    The Simpsons theme tune is Lydian dominant.
    It is indeed. I'll do a thread one day about modes of melodic minor! Though I fear there won't be many tunes for each mode! (apart from mixolydian b6)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • carloscarlos Frets: 3426
    I've played Greensleeves in Aeolian my whole life. Oh oh.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    carlos said:
    I've played Greensleeves in Aeolian my whole life. Oh oh.
    Yep it’s a common variant (and most ice cream vans play it with a minor 6th). Nobody really knows the original source of the tune - it probably wasn’t Henry VIII and there’s no original score. But it was probably Dorian - so the fifth note in the melody is a major 6th above the root. 

    As per this Vaughan Willams version in F Dorian: 



    Or like this one in G Dorian (with the key sig of 1 flat; I personally would prefer to score that with 2 flats, as though it were in G minor, and naturalise the Eb to an E whenever it occurs, but that’s personal preference. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Modes are easy to understand... 

    You're thinking about something that's happening tomorrow - lydian.
    you're talking to a friend - major 
    you're talking to a friend after 1 pint of stella - mixolydian
    you're talking to a friend after 2 pints of stella - dorian 
    you're talking to a friend after 3 pints of stella - aeolian
    you're talking to a friend after 4 pints of stella - phrygian
    you're talking to a friend after 5 pints of stella - locrian

    Melodic Minor Modes - half-way between any of those - #4 and b7, b6 and b7, b2 and b7  ... like after pint 5 when you add a tequila chaser. 

    and that's modes.. they shift the semi-tone clashes around to add emphasis in different places - just like we do in conversations... after beer. 
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