Sell Tesla?

RandallFlagg

yocky said:

ICBM said:

And the moral one. Personally, I hope all the short-sellers and other wheeler-dealers lose their shirts - they're parasites.

Investment in the long-term future of industry creates wealth - short-term speculation on the future values of shares does not, and can sometimes have a catastrophic impact on the genuine investors.

Don't think that's entirely fair. Some short sellers see themselves as waging a constant battle against charlatans and fraudsters, taking a stand against companies that are likely to impoverish unsophisticated investors. See Muddy Waters Research for example.

It would be difficult to look at the Wirecard fiasco and conclude that short sellers were the problem.

The lines aren't always so easy to draw.

Wirecard filed for insolvency after revelations that €1.9 billion was "missing"

Just how this can still happen since the banking crisis beggars belief

RandallFlagg

Snap said:

RandallFlagg said:

Snap said:

Tesla's future isn't in cars. It will be infrastructure and charging tech and the like. They already have an unrivalled charging network. It doesn't take a great leap to widen the availability of that to other car manufactures either through the existing infrastructure or through licensed kit/IP. 
However, like all investments that have had strong growth, you make a call as to when to sell - along the lines of, have I made more than I expected, and is this the right time for me to sell, and what would I do with the gain?

and they are a Tech company that just happens to make electric cars.

Exactly, the cars are the gateway point into the longer game I think. I quite fancy a Cybertruck though! Bit big for UK roads, just a tad

Battery Day on 22nd Sept will be interesting. All sorts of rumours flying around

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/elon-musk-hints-at-major-capacity-increases-as-tesla-battery-day-approaches/ar-BB18mkrO

ToneControl

RandallFlagg said:

yocky said:

ICBM said:

And the moral one. Personally, I hope all the short-sellers and other wheeler-dealers lose their shirts - they're parasites.

Investment in the long-term future of industry creates wealth - short-term speculation on the future values of shares does not, and can sometimes have a catastrophic impact on the genuine investors.

Don't think that's entirely fair. Some short sellers see themselves as waging a constant battle against charlatans and fraudsters, taking a stand against companies that are likely to impoverish unsophisticated investors. See Muddy Waters Research for example.

It would be difficult to look at the Wirecard fiasco and conclude that short sellers were the problem.

The lines aren't always so easy to draw.

Wirecard filed for insolvency after revelations that €1.9 billion was "missing"

Just how this can still happen since the banking crisis beggars belief

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/wirecard-shows-why-bans-on-short-selling-are-badly-misguided-20200819#:~:text=Short%2Dselling%20investors%2C%20including%20hedge,if%20it%20ever%20actually%20existed.

BBBlues

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

This is the only really correct answer.  Obviously the best day to buy into anything is the end of the last day of a big drop, and the best time to sell is the day before the next drop happens, but noone knows when those day is until weeks afterwards - insider trading aside, obvs. A calm hand with a long term outlook and a diverse portfolio is the only consistent answer. 

And the moral one. Personally, I hope all the short-sellers and other wheeler-dealers lose their shirts - they're parasites.

Investment in the long-term future of industry creates wealth - short-term speculation on the future values of shares does not, and can sometimes have a catastrophic impact on the genuine investors.

Is your point about short-term speculation in general? I'm not sure there's any moral distinction to be made as to which instrument these people use... it's all secondary market activity anyway.

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

RandallFlagg said:

yocky said:

ICBM said:

And the moral one. Personally, I hope all the short-sellers and other wheeler-dealers lose their shirts - they're parasites.

Investment in the long-term future of industry creates wealth - short-term speculation on the future values of shares does not, and can sometimes have a catastrophic impact on the genuine investors.

Don't think that's entirely fair. Some short sellers see themselves as waging a constant battle against charlatans and fraudsters, taking a stand against companies that are likely to impoverish unsophisticated investors. See Muddy Waters Research for example.

It would be difficult to look at the Wirecard fiasco and conclude that short sellers were the problem.

The lines aren't always so easy to draw.

Wirecard filed for insolvency after revelations that €1.9 billion was "missing"

Just how this can still happen since the banking crisis beggars belief

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/wirecard-shows-why-bans-on-short-selling-are-badly-misguided-20200819#:~:text=Short%2Dselling%20investors%2C%20including%20hedge,if%20it%20ever%20actually%20existed.

That doesn't answer how it happened it just mentions that some hedge funds suspected fraud so shorted the stock for profit. My question is in a regulated sector like Finance and after the lessons of the 2008 crash how can €1.9BN go "missing". The auditors will have some questions to answer surely? 

RandallFlagg

BBBlues said:

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

This is the only really correct answer.  Obviously the best day to buy into anything is the end of the last day of a big drop, and the best time to sell is the day before the next drop happens, but noone knows when those day is until weeks afterwards - insider trading aside, obvs. A calm hand with a long term outlook and a diverse portfolio is the only consistent answer. 

And the moral one. Personally, I hope all the short-sellers and other wheeler-dealers lose their shirts - they're parasites.

Investment in the long-term future of industry creates wealth - short-term speculation on the future values of shares does not, and can sometimes have a catastrophic impact on the genuine investors.

Is your point about short-term speculation in general? I'm not sure there's any moral distinction to be made as to which instrument these people use... it's all secondary market activity anyway.

I guess it's like the betting exchanges, You can bet on a horse race to win or lose, you can research the race card and place a bet and see it through out of a love for the sport, or, you can trade in the back/lay market either before the race starts and try and green up to lock in a profit regardless of the race outcome or even bet "in running" by trying to judge the outcome as the race progresses but before it ends, often quickly laying a horse that falls at a good price before the general public or betting shops catch up. In the early days of Betfair some "shops" were set up with access to the fast pics that they use at the track rather than the delayed TV broadcasts, they had 3-4 second advantage over the bookies and general public so they could clean up "in running" as they know which horse won or lost before anyone else did apart from those at the track.

That kind of betting has nothing to do with horse racing at all it's simply playing the money market, same as stock market day traders, short sellers etc.

ToneControl

and in other news, apparently Apple is worth more than the entire FTSE100
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53996191

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

and in other news, apparently Apple is worth more than the entire FTSE100
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53996191

Incredible isn't it? The FTSE100 stocks are down on the February highs, UK stocks are a bit unloved across the board, but still one company worth more than the Top 100 of UK companies? It's mind boggling.

Apple is probably the largest single holding across my wife & my pensions and ISA, we have just under £10K invested as it's quite a large holding in 3 of our funds....So long may the stock price rise! 

ToneControl

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

Are your feeling the FOMO? :-)

yocky

RandallFlagg said:

That doesn't answer how it happened it just mentions that some hedge funds suspected fraud so shorted the stock for profit. My question is in a regulated sector like Finance and after the lessons of the 2008 crash how can €1.9BN go "missing". The auditors will have some questions to answer surely? 

EY the auditors are absolutely going to be hung out to dry. As are the German financial regulator who were at best fast asleep and at worst complicit. It's an unimaginable own goal for the German financial services industry.

The hard graft was done by 2 of our favourite recent whipping boys, short selling/activist hedge funds and the MSM (Financial Times basically), who were telling everyone a year ago that Wirecard were wrong 'uns.

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

The Tesla share price dropped by just under 6% day on day due to portfolio rebalancing by Baillie Gifford, the largest External shareholder of Tesla, that's all:

“The substantial increase in Tesla’s share price means that we needed to reduce our holding in order to reflect concentration guidelines which restrict the weight of a single stock in clients’ portfolios,” Baillie Gifford’s James Anderson said in a statement.

“However, we intend to remain significant shareholders for many years ahead. We remain very optimistic about the future of the company. Tesla no longer faces any difficulty in raising capital at scale from outside sources but should there be serious setbacks in the share price we would welcome the opportunity to once again increase our shareholding.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/teslas-largest-outside-shareholder-reduces-holding-citing-portfolio-restrictions.html

ToneControl

RandallFlagg said:

ToneControl said:

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

The Tesla share price dropped by just under 6% day on day due to portfolio rebalancing by Baillie Gifford, the largest External shareholder of Tesla, that's all:

“The substantial increase in Tesla’s share price means that we needed to reduce our holding in order to reflect concentration guidelines which restrict the weight of a single stock in clients’ portfolios,” Baillie Gifford’s James Anderson said in a statement.

“However, we intend to remain significant shareholders for many years ahead. We remain very optimistic about the future of the company. Tesla no longer faces any difficulty in raising capital at scale from outside sources but should there be serious setbacks in the share price we would welcome the opportunity to once again increase our shareholding.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/teslas-largest-outside-shareholder-reduces-holding-citing-portfolio-restrictions.html

which day on day is that?
and what about over 2 days?

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

RandallFlagg said:

ToneControl said:

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

The Tesla share price dropped by just under 6% day on day due to portfolio rebalancing by Baillie Gifford, the largest External shareholder of Tesla, that's all:

“The substantial increase in Tesla’s share price means that we needed to reduce our holding in order to reflect concentration guidelines which restrict the weight of a single stock in clients’ portfolios,” Baillie Gifford’s James Anderson said in a statement.

“However, we intend to remain significant shareholders for many years ahead. We remain very optimistic about the future of the company. Tesla no longer faces any difficulty in raising capital at scale from outside sources but should there be serious setbacks in the share price we would welcome the opportunity to once again increase our shareholding.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/teslas-largest-outside-shareholder-reduces-holding-citing-portfolio-restrictions.html

which day on day is that?

and what about over 2 days?

Tesla prices closed as follows:

$498.49 31st August
$475.04 -4.7% 1st September
$447.37 -5.83% 2nd September

-10.3% over the 2 sessions, still up over 5 days. Easily explained by the Baillie Gifford rebalancing although future overnight trading shows another 2.26% fall potentially. It's noise when you look at the bigger picture YTD below and I would expect the stock to rocket up after Tesla Battery Day announcements on 22nd September when all the RobinHood millennial investors start foaming at the mouth and piling in and the Tesla Fanboi YouTubers get all moist over whatever new battery tech Elon Musk unveils.

Either way my personal exposure is reduced by the Baillie Gifford rebalancing as that's the only fund I carry that has Tesla in the portfolio. I trust the fund Managers to make the right decisions for long term fund growth.

In my opinion, you cannot use traditional valuation methods to assess this stock or the FAANG stocks, the RobinHood crowd don't care for it and will keep piling in, the weight of their retail money is now quite significant and is counter to the traditional institutional way of investing. People are DIY investing in single stocks in more numbers than ever via their phone apps, I'm not one of them, and I'm not saying it's right but I think people saving and investing is a good thing and should be encouraged.

ToneControl

RandallFlagg said:

ToneControl said:

RandallFlagg said:

ToneControl said:

in case anyone missed it, Tesla shares peaked at $540 yesterday, went down to $405 today
That's a 24% drop in 24 hours or so

That's a very choppy 2 days

it's around $440 now, so 19% down on yesterday

Time to check the value of those US Tech managed fund values tomorrow afternoon!

The Tesla share price dropped by just under 6% day on day due to portfolio rebalancing by Baillie Gifford, the largest External shareholder of Tesla, that's all:

“The substantial increase in Tesla’s share price means that we needed to reduce our holding in order to reflect concentration guidelines which restrict the weight of a single stock in clients’ portfolios,” Baillie Gifford’s James Anderson said in a statement.

“However, we intend to remain significant shareholders for many years ahead. We remain very optimistic about the future of the company. Tesla no longer faces any difficulty in raising capital at scale from outside sources but should there be serious setbacks in the share price we would welcome the opportunity to once again increase our shareholding.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/teslas-largest-outside-shareholder-reduces-holding-citing-portfolio-restrictions.html

which day on day is that?

and what about over 2 days?

Tesla prices closed as follows:

$498.49 31st August
$475.04 -4.7% 1st September
$447.37 -5.83% 2nd September

-10.3% over the 2 sessions, still up over 5 days. Easily explained by the Baillie Gifford rebalancing although future overnight trading shows another 2.26% fall potentially. It's noise when you look at the bigger picture YTD below and I would expect the stock to rocket up after Tesla Battery Day announcements on 22nd September when all the RobinHood millennial investors start foaming at the mouth and piling in and the Tesla Fanboi YouTubers get all moist over whatever new battery tech Elon Musk unveils.

In my opinion, you cannot use traditional valuation methods to assess this stock or the FAANG stocks, the RobinHood crowd don't care for it and will keep piling in, the weight of their retail money is now quite significant and is counter to the traditional institutional way of investing. People are DIY investing in single stocks in more numbers than ever via their phone apps, I'm not one of them, and I'm not saying it's right but I think people saving and investing is a good thing and should be encouraged.

ahh, the chart I have is a bit different, I will try to find out why

RandallFlagg

I use Google Finance page and Morningstar

Snap

Apple is an interesting company for sure. I bought at around 180 when the X was launched and it dropped consistently for quite a while. I held firm though, as it was quite a few grand in, but thankfully it paid off. I think it's OK for a good while yet tbh. Pretty amazing really as the iphone isn't the most technologically accomplished phone, but its very well loved and is embedded in many businesses as it's easy to centrally administer. The ipad is consistently the best tablet around though, and like all Apple's stuff - it just works, and keeps working. For the majority of people, that;s all that matters. As long as Apple maintain this ethos, I can't see them dipping too much in the foreseeable future, if I had to hedge my bets. 

RandallFlagg

Snap said:

Apple is an interesting company for sure. I bought at around 180 when the X was launched and it dropped consistently for quite a while. I held firm though, as it was quite a few grand in, but thankfully it paid off. I think it's OK for a good while yet tbh. Pretty amazing really as the iphone isn't the most technologically accomplished phone, but its very well loved and is embedded in many businesses as it's easy to centrally administer. The ipad is consistently the best tablet around though, and like all Apple's stuff - it just works, and keeps working. For the majority of people, that;s all that matters. As long as Apple maintain this ethos, I can't see them dipping too much in the foreseeable future, if I had to hedge my bets. 

I agree. Interestingly, in his John Peel lecture some years ago, while talking about how modern musicians need to diversify to survive, Iggy Pop mentioned that in 1992 he bought shares in a, at the time, little known company called Apple and they will now comfortably pay for his retirement! The Michigan punk rocker turned investor pro.

I've worked out that $1,000 of Apple shares in 1992 are now worth $3.2M

"You wouldn't imagine Iggy Pop to be a shrewd investor, but he has his methods and, while they're somewhat out of leftfield, they're not to be discounted.

"I had the impression that Apple, the corporation, had successfully coopted the good feelings that the average American felt about the culture of The Beatles, by kind of stealing the name of their company. So I bought a little stock. Good move! 1992! Woo!"

https://www.abc.net.au/doublej/music-reads/features/five-things-we-learned-from-iggy-pops-john-peel-lecture/10272704

crunchman

Snap said:

Apple is an interesting company for sure. I bought at around 180 when the X was launched and it dropped consistently for quite a while. I held firm though, as it was quite a few grand in, but thankfully it paid off. I think it's OK for a good while yet tbh. Pretty amazing really as the iphone isn't the most technologically accomplished phone, but its very well loved and is embedded in many businesses as it's easy to centrally administer. The ipad is consistently the best tablet around though, and like all Apple's stuff - it just works, and keeps working. For the majority of people, that;s all that matters. As long as Apple maintain this ethos, I can't see them dipping too much in the foreseeable future, if I had to hedge my bets. 

Had to LOL that.

I had various issues when I had a Macbook Pro.

We had an Apple TV that stopped showing YouTube when it was only a couple of years old because they didn't want to support it any more.

Look at all the laptop threads and all the comments about newer Macbooks overheating and being unrepairable.

TheMarlin

Ubisoft, Nintendo, 2K, EA....games companies did very  well out of Covid, and will continue to do so. 

Money put there is a wise move.