6 screw vs Twin Pivot Strat Tremolos - This 'Experiment' Makes No Sense To Me

jaymenon

From the Kinman Website (he waxes eloquent on the 6 screw traditional tremolo, and he describes an experiment to gauge the negative effect a Twin Pivot bridge has). 

However, I fail to see how this procedure compares a twin pivot with a 6 screw bridge.  All he is doing is decking the tremolo, and creating a firm contact between the tremolo block and body wood.  He's fitting a piece of wood on the neck side of the tremolo block (which would inhibit any upward movement of the tremolo arm). 

So wouldn't any tonal changes apply equally to a 6-screw tremolo?

Please educate me, if I'm missing something here...

A simple experiment to partially gauge the negative effect your Twin Pivot bridge has. 

- Take the back plate off to gain access to the springs and rear of the bridge block. 

- Notice how the bridge floats and can be pulled up or pushed down (with respect to the body). This can happen because the block attached to the back of the bridge has clearance on both sides of it, allowing movement in both directions. 

- The object of this exercise is to disable that movement and lock the bridge to the body. 

- The simplest way to do this is to fit a little piece of wood or something similar between the leading side of the block and the side of the cavity in the guitar's body. 

- This piece of wood should fit snugly in the existing space, and maybe even push the block away from the wood a tiny fraction. 

- Once in place tighten the spring claw screws to increase the spring tension thus increasing the clamping force exerted onto the piece of wood. 

- Position a little dollop of BlueTak (sticky plasticine kind of substance) onto the 'wood' and 'block' to prevent the piece of wood falling out when you press the Trem arm down. 

- You should now notice that it takes quite a lot more exertion to press the Trem arm down. 

- After re-tuning, you should also hear a difference in the sound, an improved difference. 

- The result, although better than previous, is still not as good as a Traditional Vintage type of bridge (the one with 6 mounting screws at it's leading edge). 

thegummy

Don't know the details but any "experiment" designed to prove a point rather than find out an answer is always going to fail completely.

boogieman

I can’t see how blocking the trem on a six screw one would be any different to doing it on a two point one either? Unless I’m missing something?  

jaymenon

boogieman said:

I can’t see how blocking the trem on a six screw one would be any different to doing it on a two point one either? Unless I’m missing something?  

My thoughts too...are we missing something?

Sassafras

What make of  blutak is he using?
 This could make a dramatic difference in the final outcome of the test.

sev112

Vintage Blutak used to give a completely different tone to modern stuff

Philly_Q

I went to look at the website to try to understand why he did this "experiment" and in the opening paragraph he says:

"Fenders twin-pivot bridge such as fitted to their American Standard and American Deluxe series has a couple of design features that you should be aware of. The string spacing is a bit too narrow for regular Strat pickups (neck position pickup is worst affected) AND it has a slightly mushy tone (less crisp attack, less twang, less definition)."

In the next few paragraphs it seems like he's more bothered about the string spacing than anything else (he goes on about Mexican and Chinese bridges which look vintage but have narrow spacing), but I suppose the "experiment" is testing the "slightly mushy tone".

But as you say, I don't know what blocking it has to do with anything.  Unless you also block a vintage one and compare the two.  But he doesn't.

He's a funny bloke.  I like his website, even though it looks like it hasn't been updated since 2003 - there's lots to read, but he's very opinionated and I doubt he has much time for anyone else's views.

jaymenon

Philly_Q said:

In the next few paragraphs it seems like he's more bothered about the string spacing than anything else (he goes on about Mexican and Chinese bridges which look vintage but have narrow spacing), 

But as you say, I don't know what blocking it has to do with anything.  Unless you also block a vintage one and compare the two.  But he doesn't.

He's a funny bloke.  I like his website, even though it looks like it hasn't been updated since 2003 - there's lots to read, but he's very opinionated and I doubt he has much time for anyone else's views.

My thoughts exactly @Philly_Q ; 

Sassafras

He doesn't even specify what type of wood he's used to block the trem.
Hardly very scientifc.
University researchers would laugh in his face.

ICBM

You're correct - complete bollocks in my opinion. He's comparing a partially-blocked bridge to a fully-floating one, not two posts to six screws.

In my opinion there is a small difference in pure tone between the two types of bridges when set up the same - quite subtle, and not at all the "two post bridges kill tone" myth that you will often hear...

There are sometimes differences in the bridge saddle and block materials, the posts are made from harder steel than the screws, and the posts are screwed into metal inserts not directly into the wood - these all do make some difference I think. If set floating, the two-post does warble more than the six-screw too, which has the effect of producing a subtle chorus-type effect even when you don't hear it clearly as pitch wobble.

But overall I think you'd be doing very well to be able to say which type of bridge a Strat has if you hear it, and probably even if you were playing it yourself, blindfolded.

Philly_Q

@ICBM you're right, there are a number of differences and I'm sure they all subtly affect the tone but not in such a way that anyone in the world in space could listen blindfold and say "Ah, obviously A and C are two-post Strats and B and D are six-screw".

The big difference for me is that I prefer the feel of the vintage bridge.  Although I do quite like that warbly thing with the two-post.

grappagreen

ICBM said:

If set floating, the two-post does warble more than the six-screw too, which has the effect of producing a subtle chorus-type effect even when you don't hear it clearly as pitch wobble.

I think you may have inadvertently solved a mystery that's been driving me nuts when using a guitar I acquired recently... 

Funkfingers

thegummy said:

Don't know the details but any "experiment", designed to prove a point, rather than find out an answer, is always going to fail completely.

This is the very definition of bad science. Wiz awarded.

If there is a significant difference between the traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato bridge and the two-point type, it is that the latter can be set fully floating. i.e. No part of the baseplate will be in direct physical contact with the body material. 

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

If there is a significant difference between the traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato bridge and the two-point type, it is that the latter can be set fully floating. i.e. No part of the baseplate will be in direct physical contact with the body material. 

That's also true of a properly set up floating six-screw bridge. It never touches the top of the body unless it's pulled fully back.

rossi

sev112 said:

Vintage Blutak used to give a completely different tone to modern stuff

Only if its been stuck up your nose for a minimum of 3 hours.

HAL9000

sev112 said:

Vintage Blutak used to give a completely different tone to modern stuff

Redtak sounds better though...

jaymenon

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

If there is a significant difference between the traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato bridge and the two-point type, it is that the latter can be set fully floating. i.e. No part of the baseplate will be in direct physical contact with the body material. 

That's also true of a properly set up floating six-screw bridge. It never touches the top of the body unless it's pulled fully back.

ICBM is correct. This is something I don't know either, until he pointed it out.

I then studied it on my rear routed strat (which of course doesn't have a pickguard obscuring the view).

The baseplate does not touch the body of the guitar.

Here's a video:

RobertW

Philly_Q said:

I went to look at the website to try to understand why he did this "experiment" and in the opening paragraph he says:

"Fenders twin-pivot bridge such as fitted to their American Standard and American Deluxe series has a couple of design features that you should be aware of. The string spacing is a bit too narrow for regular Strat pickups (neck position pickup is worst affected) AND it has a slightly mushy tone (less crisp attack, less twang, less definition)."

Why would the neck pickup be the worst affected by a narrower string spacing? Surely the bridge pickup would be the worst affected as the difference in string space is going to be more pronounced the closer you get to the bridge.

jaymenon

RobertW said:

Philly_Q said:

I went to look at the website to try to understand why he did this "experiment" and in the opening paragraph he says:

"Fenders twin-pivot bridge such as fitted to their American Standard and American Deluxe series has a couple of design features that you should be aware of. The string spacing is a bit too narrow for regular Strat pickups (neck position pickup is worst affected) AND it has a slightly mushy tone (less crisp attack, less twang, less definition)."

Why would the neck pickup be the worst affected by a narrower string spacing? Surely the bridge pickup would be the worst affected as the difference in string space is going to be more pronounced the closer you get to the bridge.

Because on a traditional strat all pickups have 52.5mm pole spacing.

By the time the strings re over the neck pickup, they are a lot closer together, and so fall well within the two outer poles. (Kinman narrowed the pole spacing on the neck pickup to 49.5mm; incidentally the middle pickup is 51mm - and the alignment looks really good.)

As for whether that affects (or doesn't affect) the sound that's a different matter.

mbe

I think the blu-tak will eventually dry out and fail. Then the block of wood will rattle about when throwing poses 

andy_k

jaymenon said:

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

If there is a significant difference between the traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato bridge and the two-point type, it is that the latter can be set fully floating. i.e. No part of the baseplate will be in direct physical contact with the body material. 

That's also true of a properly set up floating six-screw bridge. It never touches the top of the body unless it's pulled fully back.

ICBM is correct. This is something I don't know either, until he pointed it out.

I then studied it on my rear routed strat (which of course doesn't have a pickguard obscuring the view).

The baseplate does not touch the body of the guitar.

Here's a video:

I havent't found the time to watch the vid, but I am pretty familiar with both main types of trem.
There is a difference with the vintage 6,in that when it is set up correctly to 'float', the leading edge is fully in contact with the body.
Wudtone ( I think ), evolved this idea slightly by using a separate base plate which allows a metal to metal pivot point, I thought this was a well engineered solution.
The traditional method has the radius edge of the bridge plate pivot on the wood of the body, and the recommendation usually involves having the outer screws being the ones relied on, the inner 4 should be backed off slightly.
This kind of setup allows the 'tremolo' unit to function as a vibrato, but is not really suited for serious whammy bar use.
The 2 point of contact modern evolution has a larger range of movement, with the original Floyd version using large screws as bridge posts, these have machined grooves which mate with  knife edges on the bridge base plate. The original versions, and the current top of the range copies do not skimp on materials, and the hardness of the bridge plate assures a long lasting and reliable product that gives a full range of travel.
The set up of these things is critical, with the original Floyd version being the only one that is worth the effort, ( I have no experience with Ibanez, but I think Steve Vai has proved these are equally reliable)
EVH is a master of the device, and curiously has a set up which involves downward travel only, this technique allows for strings to break without losing tuning, but does require a rock solid lock at the nut and well contacted knife edge pivots, this also has the benefit of full tonal transfer to the body as the full bridge plate is in contact. It is easy to hear a difference if you convert a decked set up to a floating one, and that is why a market for oversized brass blocks evolved, there is a definite loss of 'tone' when the trem is set up to float as it is truly pivoting on a knife edge.
If you get lucky, you can have a version of the decked set up which has the block in contact with the inside of the rout in the body, which allows the block to be in contact even if the bridge plate is set up off the body, and the 'tremsetter' devices replicate this behaviour.
After many years of experimenting I have arrived at 2 setups that I like, both have pro's and cons,neither is perfect for me.
I either use a traditional unit decked, either with full springs or fewer, but with no downward movement.
The springs have a kind of built in reverb effect, but the actual tremolo is not used, and the arm is removed- this is not comparable to a hardtail as the entire assembly has an effect on the tone.
My other preference is for a fully floating OFR, with a big block. This allows for use of the full whammy bar effect, and also the more subtle upward vibrato and warble when hitting the strings hard. I find I play very differently when using this setup and it is easy to fall into some stereotypical behaviours with it, a very guilty pleasure.
I respect the genius of EVH, but I can't use it in the way he does, it seems like a lot of work to get half the benefits, but it works for him.
That's a lot of words to say, its all good fun, but it does take a bit of work to get it right, there is no 'better' solution here.