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6 screw vs Twin Pivot Strat Tremolos - This 'Experiment' Makes No Sense To Me
Base theme by DesignModo & ported to Powered by Vanilla by Chris Ireland, modified by the "theFB" team.
Comments
In fact, the D piece introduces friction as the B area slides back and forth over it. If it wasn't there at all then there would be a gap under the bridge and it would move with no friction. Stainless steel - especially oiled - will be better than it rubbing against the body, but still not as good as no contact at all.
You're not Andy from Wudtone by any chance are you?
For what it's worth, the recessed area behind point A *is* a genuine improvement - it means you can set the screws a tiny bit lower without the bridge being forced to move down the screws by their heads if you use the arm vigorously.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I am not interested in arguing a point with you, I respect your opinions, and I am not the only person who has problems with getting the traditional design to work properly and reliably.
I have seen Jeff Beck up close quite a few times though, so I do understand the earlier comparison between him and Hank, which version of the trem works for him best? Hank uses it as a vibrato, and is not doing many divebombs.
Peace.
So is one view is it rides on the front plate (like the thin Wudtone shim), the other view is it SHOULDNT ride underneath like that anyway? and that is due to the 6 screws set too low and should be all lifted uniformly? fascinating debate
That is what led to the evolution of better designs, the original still has its charms, but it isn't suited to everything.
I have been doing it wrong for about 35 years apparently, but I moved over to 2 point locking systems in the 80's when I actually wanted to use it and stay in tune.
Some people will always know better, and that is great.
Life is one long lesson.
If the trem is fully floating then the baseplate should be parallel to, but not touching, the body. However if the trem isn’t fully floating then part of the baseplate will necessarily be touching the body. However, as long as the bevel on the underside of the baseplate begins further back than the knife edge, it can neither act as a pivot point nor introduce any additional friction.
I understand all the explanations of how / where the tremolo unit works, and it works as designed when set up correctly for a limited time when used as a light vibrato, as Hank showed successfully. We can't really know how reliable it was-it only had to stay in tune for a 3 minute length of time.
The more modern evolution of the use of the trem, with it's more dramatic movements meant the original design had shortcomings which made it unreliable.
My own experience showed me that there was considerable wear and problems when trying to use the trem in an exaggerated way, and I followed the crowd and moved onto the OFR design, and my tuning problems went away.
I have used many types of locking trems, and found that the only one which worked as it should do, was the original Schaller model, with it's heavy screw posts and hard cast baseplate. In this form, the knife edges can withstand extended use, and if used as a floating trem I would have to have a back up guitar ready if a string broke.
I wouldn't need one if I used it in the same way EVH has his set up, the fine tuners will allow for the tuning problems if a string breaks, but it doesn't completely go out.
The Wudtone design, with its recessed bevel to accept the screw head, and it's metal baseplate is a modern solution to the original design, and is manufactured to tolerances higher than the original, I am not promoting it-but can appreciate the enhancements it attempted. You only have to see the attention paid to the bevelled edge on the underside of the baseplate to see the thinking behind it. There is obvious friction in this area when under string tension, and the original woodscrew cannot absorb this friction without considerable wear.
I haven't used the Fender 2 point system, but it appears to be a mix of the Floyd idea, combined with the traditional fender bridge and it works well enough for Jeff Beck to be able to use his more extreme tricks, but I have first hand experience of seeing the rack of guitars he has offstage, which get changed out regularly. His use of a roller nut does not completely fix the tuning problem, but Guthrie Govan seems to have got it right with his use of a locking bridge and tuners - another approach to the problem which works well.
Steve Vai is possibly one of the worst ( best ) abusers of the trem, so I would assume that Ibanez have sorted the problem out as well.
Thanks Andy, it’s obvious that you have an open, enquiring mind and that you have been thinking very carefully about this tremolo, rather than (as many people do) sticking to what one has always believed is true.
A great deal of what you say makes perfect sense - and I really enjoy conversations with people who think, and make me think too.
When ICBM first pointed out that even the traditional tremolo floats above the body (unless decked) it was news to me. I had always believed that 6-screw tremelos sound better because they actually touch the body.
So I thought very carefully about it too..
Take a look at this little video that I made today (it’s barely 10 seconds). I am able to pass a little surgical measuring ruler underneath my tremolo on both sides, illustrating objectively that it does indeed float above the guitar (at least on my guitar).
https://youtu.be/xttwtXh7ZQ8
I had a Wudtone Holy Grail Tremolo too. The facets in the upper surface of the baseplate are nice. But the whacker plate no longer makes sense to me.
If you can pass anything below the bridge plate, you do not have it decked, and you are not getting a full tone transfer to the body, only through the bridge screws. You may have the block in contact with the inner cavity, which would allow some additional tone transfer, but it isn't the same as having the bridge decked against the body.
In your case, does the bridge have any upward travel, ie can you raise the pitch?
Also, does the bridge move downward when bending strings?, ie what is the spring tension?
These are really setup questions, and there is no right or wrong, it all depends on personal preference, if it works for you that is good enough.
Personally, I don't like what happens when a decked tremolo becomes un decked, as in, I have to have the springs tight enough to resist string bending.
I have tried to look at the original patent drawings for the Fender unit, and they appear to show the bridge being set up for slight upward travel, and as such they are not showing a decked trem either. The bridge must be floating, and the only contact must be against the screws. as @ICBM states.
That is not how I like to have it set, but I don't say anything is right or wrong, only how I see it working.
The pic I posted above shows my own decked tremolo, in a depressed position, and I think you can also see how it is in relation to the screw heads, which are flush with the bridge plate in a decked position. It appears to me to show that there must be some sliding motion over the screw to allow movement, which will also wear over time.
Your video, although helpful, is not showing the same thing.
If it helps others to understand how things work in reality, it is helpful I think.
cheers
andy k
The recess behind the screw is there to allow the bridge to move forward / downwards.
It will not allow the screw to be set any other way than flush with the plate-as the front section shows.
The bridge plate would otherwise be forced down the screw-as the original design does.
Which is the whole point of my argument, this is WEAR, and results in tuning problems.
Case closed as far as I am concerned.
Peace.
The original design does *not* entail the plate being forced down the screw if it's set correctly. It will sit with a small gap under the screw heads, and pivot smoothly at that point without the plate moving up and down the screws - this is clearly visible in both jaymenon's and my videos.
If you're setting it with the screws too tight - regardless of whether it's just the outer two - so it's forced to slide up and down the screws or bind against the body, then don't be surprised when, exactly as you say, you cannot get it to work reliably.
But if you take the trouble to actually learn how it really does work, then you can.
I am really trying to not continue this argument, but when you're going to ignore actual testing, still insist that you're right, and say 'case closed', then I have no choice unfortunately.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I have set up my traditional trems to plenty of official guides, they all say, 'tighten screws until flush with baseplate'
some further advise to 'slacken off middle 4 to reduce friction'
Something not very accurate about that is there ? What is flush with baseplate?, I take it as touching, but not putting any downward force, and slacken off, means maybe 1 eighth turn.
That is how it should be set up, I am never saying it should be anything else, I am saying that when the trem is used, the leverage forces the plate to move up and down the screw-can you not see that?
I am simply sticking to my understanding of how the device works-based on many years of using it.
I will accept I am wrong-if I am wrong, but I am not in this case.
You keep insisting I am tightening the screws too tight--how would this be possible, if I have the baseplate decked.
What is this-'small gap' you talk about--what does it measure?
I always understood it to be touching, not pushing down beyond the thickness of the plate.
Now, please at least accept you might not be understanding my point, and don't keep telling me I am wrong, I don't think it is fair to deliberately mis represent what I say, please at least admit you got it wrong in the quote I highlighted above.
I am not ignoring anything here, but you seem to ignore the question I ask of you.
Case is still open, until you accept you might not be 100 per cent right in this case.
sorry.
Below is my understanding:
If your trem is floating, no matter how many springs you use, at the point that the bridge ultimately rests:
String tension = spring tension
Bending a string increases string tension, and there will some movement of the bridge, with flattening of the pitch of the other strings.
The more springs you use, the less will be this bridge movement.
If you deck your tremolo, you can make spring tension exceed string tension (by a lot), since the tremolo cannot move back any further. And then will not be any flattening of the other strings when bending, as long as your total string tension is less than the spring tension.
But
1. You'll only have pitch-downward movement on the tremolo
2. It'll take a lot of force to depress the tremolo arm - and that may well cause downward movement of the entire tremolo
However, with two or three springs - and the trem floating, it takes very little force to depress the trem arm.
The trem pivots like a see-saw on the pivot point (screws or twin pivot posts)
The arm inserts into the baseplate/block complex behind the fulcrum point / pivot point
And so
when the trem arm is pressed down, the bridge goes up (and towards the nut)
https://youtu.be/p2HCF88FKJE
and all that makes perfect sense to me, all that is personal preference, and is correct.
My own preference, is to not have the pitch change on adjacent strings when I bend, with a decked trem, for the tonal benefits.
Therefore I set them the way I like them, based on good advice and official guides.
This means I have 3 springs, fairly tight, as shown on my photo.
The screws are flush with the top of the baseplate.
In the photo, you can see the effect the diameter of the screw head has on the point which the bridge plate moves if the trem is depressed.
It forces a slight downward movement of the plate over the screw--it has to. Leverage.
And also wear.
Therefore this kind of trem is not suitable for vigorous use. And setting it up this way, there is no upwards travel.
But it does have good tonal transfer to the body of the instrument, which is why EVH sets his up this way.
Horses for courses, but lets not pretend that the trad 6 point trem works for everybody, or is capable of it.
Some people do not seem to accept this.
Maybe they make a living setting them up for other people ( temporarily )
Maybe.
I am 100% right in describing the way the bridge works - it pivots on the screws, not on the body - that's a fact of physics, not an opinion. Unfortunately the idea that the bridge pivots on the body has become widespread, but that doesn't mean it's correct. If it binds against the body (it does not pivot on it - the forces are not in that direction), then it's set wrong.
Any guide that says you should tighten the screws until flush with the baseplate and then slacken the middle four is wrong. You should tighten them until they touch the plate *and then slacken all six by the same amount*. Raising the middle four by themselves does nothing useful at all, it simply moves the contact point down the screws slightly.
(For what it's worth, this is far from the only piece of common set-up advice which is wrong!)
There must be enough clearance under the screw heads for the bridge to float without binding against either the underside of the heads or the body - that's exactly what you can see in the videos. How much, in physical distance terms, depends on how vigorously you want to use the bridge - there's a practical limit, but it's plenty in normal use and if you want to bend down further than that, the nut is going to cause bigger issues. Typically between an eighth and a quarter turn is right.
If you start by understanding that the physics of the bridge movement are precisely the same as for a two-post bridge - or a PRS six-screw bridge, which clearly does pivot only on the screws - then you'll quickly be able to see why the rest is so.
For what it's worth, the benefit of the Wudtone recesses it that you *can* tighten the screws - two, or all six - to the point they are very nearly tight against the plate, while preventing the screw heads binding against it. There still needs to be a tiny amount of clearance to allow the bevel under the plate to clear the body, but it can be microscopic if you want - as long as there is no contact. But that's all, and it's really no better than raising the screw heads by the same amount.
If you will accept that friction between the plate and either body or the screw heads is a function of setting them too tightly and not of the way the bridge is meant to work or does work when adjusted correctly, then we will actually be on the same page...
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
This section explains our differences,
''There must be enough clearance under the screw heads for the bridge to float without binding against either the underside of the heads or the body - that's exactly what you can see in the videos. How much, in physical distance terms, depends on how vigorously you want to use the bridge - there's a practical limit, but it's plenty in normal use and if you want to bend down further than that, the nut is going to cause bigger issues. Typically between an eighth and a quarter turn is right.
If you start by understanding that the physics of the bridge movement are precisely the same as for a two-post bridge - or a PRS six-screw bridge, which clearly does pivot only on the screws - then you'll quickly be able to see why the rest is so.''
There is a practical limit, which is the difference between using the unit as a vibrato, or a whammy bar.
The physics of the traditional design, are not precisely the same as a 2 point system.
The 2 point system uses knife edges mated to grooved screws, the traditional system has not evolved to that point and ignores the wear issues.
I learned many years ago, that the traditional 6 point could not work for me, therefore I went to the OFR for guitars where I wanted to use a vibrato unit, and dive bomb.
On my strats, I prefer to use the unit decked for its tonal character, and the built in reverb effect.
I have done nothing 'wrong', I simply choose to do it this way.
We are on the same page, just not reading the same book.
peace.