Secondary dominant off the iii

viz

Yes. The V chord can only satisfactorily have a major 7th if you’re playing in Lydian. So Bmaj7 - E Lydian would be ok.

Also try avoid thinking in scales. Even try not to think in terms of the palette of notes “allowed” in each chord. Try instead to think of beautiful tunes!

Axe_meister

So in a classic rock context what would be a natural flow of scale choices?
C Mix to B mix to E Dorian?

So southern rock to minor blues and back to southern Rock.

In a Statch like context C Lydian B Mix to E Phrygian?

viz

Axe_meister said:

So in a classic rock context what would be a natural flow of scale choices?
C Mix to B mix to E Dorian?

So southern rock to minor blues and back to southern Rock.

In a Statch like context C Lydian B Mix to E Phrygian?

Yep. The Satch one’s a little odd but why not? Jeff’sngroovy drumming will make it sound ok

Axe_meister

Are they any guides of what modes generally sound good together when following chords, in different genres? 

viz

Yep - will write some stuff about it later if someone else doesn’t first

Axe_meister

Obviously in a blues rock context Mixolydian and Dorian sound good together as they are essentially major and minor pentatonic 

Brad

Axe_meister said:

So in a classic rock context what would be a natural flow of scale choices?
C Mix to B mix to E Dorian?

So southern rock to minor blues and back to southern Rock.

In a Statch like context C Lydian B Mix to E Phrygian?

Go for it, but I’d be careful here. Just because you could theoretically do something, doesn’t mean you should or that it’ll sound good. 

Are you just dealing with triads or are any of the chords being extended? What is the tempo/how many bars are you on each chord etc? This info can really help determine your choices as those three chords together create a strong sound that our ear expects to be treated in a certain way. 

Obviously feel free to go against that! If the phrasing is right, it can be really cool hitting something we don’t expect but sometimes the best option is the obvious one. 

Axe_meister

At the moment I am only looking at triads. Obviously extending the chords narrows you choice down. I'm going to turn this into a practice piece, two bars on C, one bar on B, two bars on Em and then back to C.

Cranky

So why not a D7, like a chromatic walk up from C to Em?  It sort of has the added benefit of being a borrowed chord plus being the dominant of the primary key's V chord (leading into its relative minor), so that's a common key change strategy also.  Or is that not as spicy as what we want?

GuyBoden

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG

Emin    = EGB

Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.  

Cranky

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG

Emin    = EGB

Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.  

But op wants to go out of key with a secondary dominant

Cranky

Cranky said:

So why not a D7, like a chromatic walk up from C to Em?  It sort of has the added benefit of being a borrowed chord plus being the dominant of the primary key's V chord (leading into its relative minor), so that's a common key change strategy also.  Or is that not as spicy as what we want?

Not to quote myself, but . . . I just realized that the op specified a V of iii progression.  Sorry for the misread.

But at any rate, to me a C-B7-Em progression sounds like the song's ending, while C-D7-Em sounds like a transition to a different part of the song. 

Stuckfast

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG

Emin    = EGB

Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.  

Wouldn't your 'Bdim' in that context actually just be a rootless G7, ie. the dominant 7th in the key of C?

Cranky

Stuckfast said:

GuyBoden said:

A simple progression would be:

CMaj    = CEG

Emin    = EGB

Bdim    = BDF

The B and F notes in Bdim will resolve nicely to the C and E notes in the CMaj chord, because they are a semi-tone apart.  

Wouldn't your 'Bdim' in that context actually just be a rootless G7, ie. the dominant 7th in the key of C?

Yeah, a diminished is basically an inverted dominant, which is a reason they're used interchangeably or together in jazzier arrangements.  But still, the op is looking for a secondary dominant.  So maybe consider using a D#dim instead of or in conjunction with the B7, as using both builds more tension, i.e. C-D#dim-B7-Em.

GuyBoden

For more voice leading, I'd probably play Emin with the B note in the bass:

CMaj = CEG

Emin = BEG

Bdim = BDF

Personally, I'd avoid secondary dominants as it makes the progression more difficult for improvisation.

Greatape

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants. 

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic. 

Brad

Greatape said:

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants. 

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic. 

Very true as D#dim is the top notes of a B7, so B, B7 and D#dim serve the same role to a lesser or greater extent. I guess I’d be cautious talking subs early on with someone getting to grips with secondary dominants mind... could cause more confusion. But the fact remains

Cranky

This is a good lesson on the wonderful world of secondary dominants.  Get your pen and paper ready.

Greatape

Brad said:

Greatape said:

Brad said:

You want B7, not Bm or Bdim as neither of those are secondary dominants. 

You could sub D# dim for B7 if you want to keep it triadic. 

Very true as D#dim is the top notes of a B7, so B, B7 and D#dim serve the same role to a lesser or greater extent. I guess I’d be cautious talking subs early on with someone getting to grips with secondary dominants mind... could cause more confusion. But the fact remains

Yeah.. although increasingly, I see those as interchangeable. Handy 'street theory' hint, folks: play the basic triad for a dom7 chord e.g.  Bb for Bb7, flatten the root down a whole tone, and you have the dim triad off the 3rd (D dim in this case)...