Follow up trem discussion

andy_k

We have had a recent discussion on pros and cons of original 6 point trem vs 2 point systems, which I think I caused a bit of derailment, it wasn't intended to provoke, and I admit I did find it quite enlightening.
During the thread I had to closely examine my own understanding and experience of the traditional 6 screw design.
I found it hard to explain my own findings, when faced with the overwhelming evidence of the original theory of the tremolo's design.
I admit, that I may have developed a misunderstanding over a long period of time, having given up on attempting to get it to work FOR ME, a long time ago.

This has led me to look closely at why I may have got things wrong.
It is not really, that I got it wrong, as such, but more the case of, I became aware of better solutions that would do it the way I preferred.
I just thought it might be useful to share my thoughts about it, as it might reveal further solutions, and might actually help other people.
It is also good to have something else to think about at the present moment.
From my first experience with the traditional design, on an 80's Japanese Squire, in the 80's, I have always struggled to get the device to work as I wanted it. My influences on it then where the obvious, Hendrix and later EVH, and I enjoyed all the acrobatics that were being demonstrated with it.
In practice though, I could never get it to work reliably, despite following all the official setups, and all the tips I gleaned from interviews etc.
When the tremolo is set up correctly, to float, giving both upward and downward travel, and with the correct tension to balance strings and have a good action, the bridge became inherently unstable for my use.
It suits a very particular style of playing in this setup, and not my heavier rhythmic playing, or bluesy styled soloing.
To get any form of stability, I had to have the trem decked on the body of the guitar, which, although solving some problems, creates others.
Rhythmic playing, and harder playing became more reliable tuning wise, my hand no longer could push the bridge out of position, and I found chords were more in tune when playing hard.
Unison bends were easier, as the pitch of the target note was no longer detuning with the bent string.
Bending became easier in general, as I was not continually fighting against the entire bridge detuning.
The tone of the instrument seemed to improve in general, it seemed to become bolder, due to the whole body absorbing string vibration, the benefits of this decision seemed to outweigh the negatives.
Which were, there was no more upward use, and the bar could now only be used to lower pitch. The effect of having to increase spring tension to resist the bridge lifting while bending meant it was difficult to actually move the bar, so it began to be used for effect rather than a major part of my technique.
This situation also revealed that when bending down, the tuning relied a lot more on the nut, as there was now no way to pull things back into tune.
Around this time, I became aware of the Floyd Rose, and had one fitted to my original Squire, which by now had Dimarzio humbuckers.
This setup was fully floating, and it wasn't long before I carved out space behind the bridge to allow more upward travel, the Jem had probably just been introduced.
This setup was a revelation for me, and the fact I was using such high powered pickups meant I did not miss any perceived tone, it was all about volume for me then, and distortion.
As time progressed, I began to use Les Paul and Tele styles more, and got used to the soilid tuning, and feel of these instruments, so all my strats were used with decked trems, if I wanted to use a tremolo style, I would use a Floyd equipped instrument as they were truly rock solid for me in the tuning department-however my playing style was very different when using one.
Even when I tried out some EVH Wolfgangs, I could not get used to the way they are set up and might as well be playing a hardtail, although I do appreciate the impact having a tremolo makes to the tone of the guitar, I describe it as built in reverb, which it isn't really, but it does do something.
The point of this ramble, is really to ask if anybody else has really tried other solutions, or have they just adapted around the instrument, without realising it maybe.
I have always built my own things, to do things the way I want them, having realised everything has it's limitations, ans still hold to the claim that EVH is a bit of a genius in bringing together the 2 main types of guitar in one glorious instrument, his original Frankenstein.
If nothing else, this post will pass some time anyway.
cheers
andy k

skullfunkerry

I'm just thinking back and I don't think I've ever had a guitar with a standard trem: it's always been hardtail or Floyd Rose for me. From about 2010 until a couple of years ago I was hardtail only and didn't feel like I needed a trem; now I have one of each and would have no hesitation in getting another guitar with a Floyd.

I'm not really sure I can add much to your post: I've never had an issue with the bridge moving when I rest my hand on it so i don't feel like I've had to adapt my playing or work around it... I've never noticed any tone  or sustain issues with my guitars, but I've always used quite high output pickups - I'd never really thought about the tone-masking aspect of that, tbh. I do remember playing my friend's guitar once which had the trem decked and the springs screwed up tight... as you said, it made the trem pretty hard to use so I think if I had a guitar like that I'd probably not bother with the trem arm at all, and just treat it like a hardtail.

andy_k

I began building guitars a few years back, partly to try and find out how certain things impacted on the tone I wanted, and along the way I think I had a few revelations.
As my tastes changed from the more distorted 80s and 90s rock sound, and I got more interested in the purer vintage tones, I began to use more sensitive, lower output pickups, and I had a similar journey with amplification, eventually arriving at lower output valve amps, which interacted much more with the pickup output.
A lot of the time, I actually play unplugged, and the difference between a decked tremolo and a floating one is most easily heard.
The type of wood the body is built from has a very dramatic effect to this acoustic sound, which is easily noticeable when the sound is magnified by valve amps, I say magnified deliberately, the dynamics of playing seem much more apparent.
I think this has the effect of exaggerating the sound that a trem system has for me, I mostly play tele styles, and when I pick up one of my decked strats there is a dramatic difference to the tone.
I have a couple of Floyd setups, some float, and some are set up decked, and I recently noticed that on one of my decked ones, which is set up with 2 springs to make it operate very lightly, I could actually hear the moment when a bent string lifts the bridge off the body. I always set up my strats to not do this, and have even blocked a couple with wood.
This got me thinking of the struggles i had with the traditional 6 in a conventional floating setup, and why I had always moved away from it.
The benefits of the traditional setup, when set up lightly, made it far too unstable for my use, and I tend to have my floating Floyds set up a little stiffer- which still allows travel in both directions, but is stable enough to not move with my hand resting on it.
The only problem I had with that setup, was the actual collar holding the arm in.
The original design worked fine until the nylon washer got worn, but the later screw on collar just did not hold the arm securely-there was a lot of extra movement, slack, which made the trem very hard to work with.
I discovered the newer push in arms fix this problem pretty well, there is an internal sleeve which can be tightened to hold the arm fairly solidly, and up to now I haven't had many problems with it.
It is all a game of compromise, and I guess we all get stuck in our ways sometimes. I think I only arrived at my own conclusions from doing a lot of experimenting, and some people just go with the accepted norms.
I recently watched a few good videos on how to set up the traditional 6 well, and it clearly can be done, but I think that makes you conform to a very particular style of playing.
That's partly why EVH fascinates me, with his choice of setup. When you realise his choice of tone was arrived at by discovering the advantage of having the trem decked, despite the fact that the travel is only one way- maybe it was just born from habit, and having to use the same guitar to get through a set in the early days?
Interesting that his later Musicman and Peavey designs stuck to that setup, and even needed it for his Detuner device.
I have never tried any of the so called solutions to the problems I describe, such as the Tremsetter, and I would love to try out an Evertune bridge, but that is for different reasons.
I am just using this as an exercise really, to keep my mind occupied right now, and I do find it interesting.

Sassafras

I solved all these problems by never using a trem.
All but one of my guitars are hardtails.

ICBM

Some very good points there about the different issues of Floyd-type vibratos.

Yes, fulcrum-type vibratos do add reverb, especially when floating but a little even when decked - if it's fully floating the whole bridge absorbs energy from the strings and vibrates, and then puts it back into the strings after the initial note has stopped. Even when the bridgeplate is decked the springs vibrate, and that feeds back into the bridge block and the strings. (Even fully blocking the bridge with wedges on both sides of the block like Eric Clapton still seems to sound slightly more 'airy' than a hardtail Strat.)

My guess is that Van Halen originally had his bridge decked to stop the unavoidable problem of the strings going wildly sharp if you break one - as the only guitarist in a band, it's a show-stopper. But you can just about get away with five strings, as long as they're still in tune...

I agree it changes the sound of the guitar, especially acoustically - I'm less convinced about it being noticeable in the amplified sound, but there must be some effect.

The Trem-Setter does work well, but it's a right pain in the backside to fit and adjust correctly - I had them on my PRSs when I was using those, and I did break a string a couple of times without the rest of them going out of tune. But I had to modify them and set them up in a way quite different from the original intention - and if they're not set just-so, they cause more trouble than they're worth, which is why they are (to put it mildly) "not universally popular" . You can also never eliminate the 'step' at the centre point of the travel, or it won't work at all, so it makes gentle vibrato around the rest point impossible. I'm not sure I would bother again, a simple back stop does almost the same job with far less fuss - it just stops you pulling up, which I rarely did anyway.

stickyfiddle

The answer is a Jazzmaster. 

I've tried strat trems and love them for occasional use, but I often want to bend one note while playing a second un-bent, and that doesn't really work on floating strat trems as your unbent strings all go flat.

That doesn't happen to anywhere the same amount on Jazzmasters and bigsbies - I'm not sure how much is the spring tension and how much is the massive extra string length behind the bridge. I could probably do the maths to work it out but I don't think I have the energy!

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

That doesn't happen to anywhere the same amount on Jazzmasters and bigsbies - I'm not sure how much is the spring tension and how much is the massive extra string length behind the bridge. I could probably do the maths to work it out but I don't think I have the energy!

I think it's the extra length, since otherwise the relative changes in tension from bending one string and its effect on the other five must be the same, as in both cases they're attached to the same anchor piece.

This is also a key part of why the various different types of vibrato sound different when bending chords - the strings detune at different rates depending on how long they are beyond the sounding length. The shortest is a Floyd with the strings clamped at both ends (no extra length at all), and the longest something like a Gretsch White Falcon with the Bigsby miles away from the bridge and a long headstock.