Zakk Wylde Les Paul claiming to be a Tokai? Is it a Fake-ai?

Fonusbak

Here's one I would love to know the real story about...hope this is OK with the Admins

About 10 years ago I was looking at buying the Gibson Zakk Wylde guitar but couldn't justify the price tag to myself. I looked at the Epiphone version but was disappointed with them, finding them a bit thin and weedy sounding so I left it. A short time later I was in Toronto, Canada and saw - what appeared to be - a Tokai version of the bullseye guitar!

I tried it and was much more impressed than I had been with the Epiphone version.

When I got back home I looked up the dealer and got one sent over...in the matching Tokai case.

Having later bought a Gibson Les Paul this one just didn't get used so I listed it on 'the Bay' and all h*ll broke loose!

I was contacted by the Tokai Registry forum to point out this wasn't a Tokai at all...and these Canadian Fake-ai's (genius name eh?) were well know...by everyone except me. The story is still on the Registry forum

I won't link it here but google the 'Tokai Forum' and 'Zakk'...the title is 'Zakk Wylde Tokai from Canada?? Sure look nice....' 

I pulled the auction as I didn't want to mislead anyone...I may have got ripped off but I'm not going to do that to anyone.

The guitar has pretty much stayed in it's case since then...

Once in a while I fall over the case and think about selling it and, despite being as honest I can be about it's origin...everything gets muddled.

So...

I've heard many versions...it's just a fake...it was a trial to tempt ZW away from Epiphone...a trial to try and get some manufacturing business from Tokai...

Does anyone here know what the real story is?

Fonusbak

https://i.imgur.com/oAc5cR0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LqFsYmE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xssg0lh.jpg

Fonusbak

Oh...and a telling error...?
https://i.imgur.com/g1l8yDG.jpg

guitargeek62

Seems like a strange one, on face value I could see Tokai putting out a short run of them - especially if at a particular dealer’s/distributor’s request. Nothing on the guitar screams “fake” to me, though I’m not an expert on MIK Tokais, or Tokais at all!

How much did you pay (pre import taxes) if you don’t mind me asking?


*edit* as per sticky and others, I have no doubt that any link to ZW stops at the finish!

Alterlifeson

I would say that is a plain old fake. Plenty of fake Gibson ZW models out there, as there are plenty of fake Tokais but this is the first Tokai ZW fake I've seen. 

The headstock shape looks wrong, normally Tokai are pretty spot on in their design and don't deviate from it. The block inlays, especially the first fret look the wrong size and shape too. The lack of EMG pickups is another sign. Zakk is an EMG artist and wouldn't have anything else. 

It looks like the factory who was making the Tokai fakes were just trying to cash in on the ZW bullseye model and made their own version.

All that being said, if it sounds and plays well it's a good guitar!

stickyfiddle

It doesn't appear to actually be a "Zakk Wylde" signature any further than the finish, which is distinctive, but surely not legally tied to ZW. 

So the question is whether it's a genuine Tokai? 

Fonusbak

guitargeek62 said:

Seems like a strange one, on face value I could see Tokai putting out a short run of them - especially if at a particular dealer’s/distributor’s request. Nothing on the guitar screams “fake” to me, though I’m not an expert on MIK Tokais, or Tokais at all!

How much did you pay (pre import taxes) if you don’t mind me asking?

I genuinely can't remember and didn't bother keeping the paperwork (as it was 'only a Tokai...). I think it was more than the black Custom they had and that put me off a bit. Whether it was reduced when I finally got around to looking for one on line is lost to the mists of time. I do remember the case was extra as I had to wait for them to get one and I thought it would be safer in a case. 

MikeS

"Make in Korea"

Fonusbak

Alterlifeson said:

I would say that is a plain old fake. Plenty of fake Gibson ZW models out there, as there are plenty of fake Tokais but this is the first Tokai ZW fake I've seen. 

The headstock shape looks wrong, normally Tokai are pretty spot on in their design and don't deviate from it. The block inlays, especially the first fret look the wrong size and shape too. The lack of EMG pickups is another sign. Zakk is an EMG artist and wouldn't have anything else. 

It looks like the factory who was making the Tokai fakes were just trying to cash in on the ZW bullseye model and made their own version.

All that beiing said, if it sounds and plays well it's a good guitar!

Could well be! It makes me laugh that I waited for the dealer to get a genuine Tokai case for it to be shipped in...

mbe

Fakey MacFake!  Made for a Canadian dealer with some sort of connection to the Dillion brand. The Tokai logo on the headstock is more 'joined up' than the genuine Tokai headstock logo. 

Kittyfrisk

I remember this being a big thing in the early 2000's in Canada.
Eventually the consensus was that despite being a copy of a copy probably made by Dillion, they were overall pretty good guitars, just not a Tokai.
Check this thread, including some good photos.
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/lets-talk-tokai-v-fakai.1528840/

HarrySeven

Fonusbak said:

Here's one I would love to know the real story about...hope this is OK with the Admins

Hey Phil.

Seen your posts re. this guitar on various foums/Facebook over the years.

I'm with @stickyfiddle on this - I don't see the "Signature" connection - it's more about whether it's Tokai or Chokai...and let's face it, the fact that Epiphone Les Pauls are heavily faked should give you a clue as to why unscrupulous manufacturers might do it - easier to fly under the radar with a £399 guitar than a £1.5K one...

NB. I've also heard similar tales to @mbe and @Kittyfrisk.

In terms of fakery, Chibsons are generally worth a tiny fraction of their real counterparts - and are difficult to sell, due to the very nature of their being*.

I don't know how much £££ you have in this thing, but at the end of the day (as you've already found), people will question it's provenance 'till the cows come home. Also, the guitar now has a lot of online history - which, on one hand is good - as you're clearly trying to establish said provenance - but not great in terms of it's perceived value, regardless of how well it plays, etc.

I see you have it up for £600 on Facebook at the moment - with the best will in the world, I think you'll need to significantly reduce that if you're (ever) going to achieve a sale, due to it's uncertain origin...



*I own (and have owned) a LOT of Chibsons - primarily because I can hack 'em about with impunity and test things which I wouldn't normally do to a 'real" LP Standard or Deluxe, etc. IMHO, they work for me as practically disposable items.

Fonusbak

HarrySeven said:

Fonusbak said:

Here's one I would love to know the real story about...hope this is OK with the Admins

Oh yeah...I started off at £400 but got some really unpleasant massages off one person wanting is for a lot less than that. As we all enjoy trolling a troll, every time he wrote I agreed with him and put the price up £100.

A local luthier has offered to have  look at it this week and give it a set up/appraisal which will be good.

I'm not overly fussed about selling it (just one more in storage etc) but, as I said, the story intrigues me every time I fall over the case.  

Fonusbak

Kittyfrisk said:

I remember this being a big thing in the early 2000's in Canada.
Eventually the consensus was that despite being a copy of a copy probably made by Dillion, they were overall pretty good guitars, just not a Tokai.
Check this thread, including some good photos.
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/lets-talk-tokai-v-fakai.1528840/

Excellent! Thanks...this is the type of thing I was looking for!

Kittyfrisk

On a positive note, with a maple neck a headstock break is unlikely, so you'll never risk getting it confused with a real Gibson 

Fonusbak

Kittyfrisk said:

On a positive note, with a maple neck a headstock break is unlikely, so you'll never risk getting it confused with a real Gibson 

Every cloud has a silver lining! ;-)

ThePrettyDamned

I would be careful selling, as it is illegal to sell counterfeit goods.

I can't say if it is or not but hope you get some answers. 

Fonusbak

ThePrettyDamned said:

I would be careful selling, as it is illegal to sell counterfeit goods.

I can't say if it is or not but hope you get some answers. 

True but I (hope!) I've been clear that it's origin is, at best, unclear. There were three or four people that seemed genuinely interested but I've pulled the sale until I can get an independant appraisal.  

*One person that messaged me saying I was breaking the law trying to sell it followed it up with an offer to buy it (as did a few members of the Tokai forum). To be fair, I had the same type of messages selling Johnny Marr Jaguar and Billie Joe Armstrong guitars recently.

**I also considered changing the ad to "Genuine Tokai Case with free guitar inside"

ThePrettyDamned

Fonusbak said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

I would be careful selling, as it is illegal to sell counterfeit goods.

I can't say if it is or not but hope you get some answers. 

True but I (hope!) I've been clear that it's origin is, at best, unclear. There were three or four people that seemed genuinely interested but I've pulled the sale until I can get an independant appraisal.  

*One person that messaged me saying I was breaking the law trying to sell it followed it up with an offer to buy it (as did a few members of the Tokai forum). To be fair, I had the same messages selling a Johnny Marr Jaguar and Billie Joe Armstrong guitars recently.

**I also considered changing the ad to "Genuine Tokai Case with free guitar inside"

Well, I'm no lawyer so I couldn't advise whether that protects you  

Weird folk would tell you it's illegal before making an offer...

Fonusbak

The plot thickens..an email I received earlier...

"This is a quote from a guy who saw these guitars at a trade show in the USA.

QUOTE

'The story on those is, they made 25 for the trade shows across the USA in 2004. No one took them up because obviously you have the licensed Epiphones, so the logic goes who's going to by a copy of a copy etc, regardless of the fact that the Tokai's piss on the Epiphones. So, a trader in Canada bought all 25 and sold them on EBay.
I was lucky to get one cuz originally he wouldn't ship here. I pestered him and thankfully he relented. I will try to dig up some more info on these but as I said previously they are made in Korea and are not fakes.
Just because you haven't see them before doesn't mean they don't exist..'


As I said, the story seems quite interesting but this is the first time I have heard from someone who appears to have first hand knowledge.