Peoples PAF Journey - Experiences

SquireJapan

Reading threads about pickups, and thinking about my own opinions on the things, I wondered what people’s journey had been like down the route of PAFs specifically. 

It seems like a game you can play forever, as there always seems to be another pickup maker that’s making “the most accurate PAF ever”. 

I’d be interested to hear what people's journey has been. Swapping out PAFs seems to almost be a pastime in itself

(I count myself lucky - I bought a cheap Bareknuckle Mule which I put in the neck of a guitar. It sounded like I expected a “PAF” to sound, and I stopped. Lucky I think, rather than being virtuous)

stickyfiddle

I have 2 PAF-equipped guitars.

SG Standard. First had an Irongear somethingorother. Now has a 57 Classics from a short-lived with Alnico 3 magnets. It sounds brilliant so I haven't even thought about changing in 8 years now. 

CS-336 - came with alnico 2 (i.e. regular) 57 Classics which were fine but a bit dull. I switch those for OX4 alnico 4s and they're fantastic. 

Those I've seen get most happy & content with their pickup choices usually tend to be those who have a conversation with one of the really great winders (OX4, Mojo, Oil City, Creamery, etc) about what they want from the pickups, and follow the advice given. 

I really don't want to overthink it beyond that, so I don't  

Monstronaut

Ive tried a few over the years. Ive tried a lot of the small builder ones Wizz, shed etc but i find seymour duncan antiquities the closest to my vintage ones. Especially with a vintage harness.

DannyP

I have one of those Vintage Lemondrops. I fully intended to have to change the pickups, but I think the stock Wilkinsons are great!

I put an Iron Gear Blues Engine set in a kit built ES355. The neck pick up is lovely and articulate, but the bridge is a bit reedy and thin. I wish I'd done what everyone else does and put the Dirty Torque in the bridge.

Best of the bunch though is the Oil City Forces Sweethearts in my Les Paul. Really airy and spacious with great separation between notes/strings.

Danielsguitars

I stopped at mojo, tried bare Knuckle, montys, and wizz and shed, funny thing is i like wizz the least

Marcs sending me another bridge to try, the last bridge he made for my lemon burst was probably the best I've ever had, just sounded like a proper vintage one

richardhomer

I used to own a ‘64 335 with factory early Patent Number pick-ups.

The bridge pick-up was surprisingly harsh (yet with poor definition on the wound strings) and the neck pick-up was overly rounded in the highs across all strings.

I realise these are not technically ‘PAFs’ - but they are certainly considered ‘Golden Era’ models.

I think it’s possible to eliminate all enjoyment of playing by getting into what Americans call ‘tone chasing’. My current guitars sound more than good enough - which for me, will do.

PonchoGreg

My journey could very well have stopped with the first set I ever got - Seymour Duncan Antiquities. Heaven in an LP.

But I find them very expensive these days so had good experiences with two UK winders, Oil City (Forces Sweetheart) and Bulldog (Cool PAFs). Both very good.

slacker

In 2013 I decided to replace the ceramic overspend 490 500 things in my LP classic. I made that decision based on trying r8s r9s redeye and Duane mega expensive guitars. I liked the sound but didn't feel they played better than mine.

So I extensively searched on the web for Klopmans montys WCR Throbaks and bareknuckle mules. I decided that the mules were the best choice on sound price and availability.

I couldn't find anyone who stocked them. So I rang up the shop I wanted to fit them and asked what they had in stock. They had lollars. 

I had the lollars 50s  wiring and mustard co as fitted. I love the sound of the guitar. I also will not try other pickups.

So short version, get some pickups any quality  pickups and  play the guitar. 

TTBZ

I had Bare Knuckle Mules in my LP for ages and didn't really care to try anything else in that guitar. It just sounded good so I left it. Then I got Black Dogs in my other LP and realised I much preferred those - they have more character to the sound. I've read people say they have a bit more of a modern sound rather than typical PAF so maybe that just works better for me. I'm also enjoying my Duncan Custom 5 at the minute, it is quite scooped but nothing my amp EQ can't fix. Has a nice "hot rodded" PAF sound to it which works for me.

I've tried Burstbuckers or whatever would be in a custom shop LP from early 00s, I like the sound but the lack of potting makes them microphonic which gets on my tits.

I think I've come to realise not really a fan of the whole "low wind" thing - to me it makes the guitar sound weak and bland but I suppose it depends on the guitar itself. Definitely doesn't work for my SG! Also not sure I like Alnico 4 in the bridge, bit too soft and polite.

guitars4you

SquireJapan said:

It seems like a game you can play forever, as there always seems to be another pickup maker that’s making “the most accurate PAF ever”. 

The issue with that phrase is that original paf's varied by quite a large margin - Even the materials changed on a daily/weekly basis, for whatever reason + off course variations in windings and who 'assembled' each pick-up

Trying to find a link to the feature, but years ago a magazine reviewed many of today's such 'replica's and interviewed various pick-up company owners - The final sentence of an in depth review was something like 'how do you accurately copy something that was assembled on an adhoc basis, utilising the finest ingredients available on the day'

Differences between many of today's replica models are subtle but audible - I've known customers try 5-10 different builders, whilst searching for the holly grail - Many builders today have a great reputation - I've also heard stories of customers that will fit make/model A in an R9 and not like them, but stick the same p/ups in say an SG and the result is magic 

As an overview I think their is a generic theme - But many variations within that - Yet equally many are very good

Funkfingers

The whole thing is meaningless.

Gibson’s production methods and material choices have never been one hundred per cent consistent - either for pickups or entire guitars. Hence, there can be no definitive P.A.F. humbucker specification to rule them all.

The best that any of us can do is point to famous recordings that exemplify our opinions of what we think “the sound” is. 

With that sound in one’s head, the options are to scour music shops for a guitar that already makes that sound or attempt to impose one’s will on a guitar already owned by feeding it aftermarket pickups in the hope of stumbling upon a combination that pleases the ear.

This done, we take our precious guitars to perform at local venues … where the audiences can not tell the difference between an R9 and margarine. (To say nothing of a modified Harley-Benton!)

timmypix

slacker said:

I decided that the mules were the best choice on sound price and availability.

I couldn't find anyone who stocked them. So I rang up the shop I wanted to fit them and asked what they had in stock. They had lollars. 

I had the lollars 50s  wiring and mustard co as fitted. I love the sound of the guitar. I also will not try other pickups.

So short version, get some pickups any quality  pickups and  play the guitar. 

You didn't think to buy them from Bare Knuckle?

Still, sounds like you got a win with the Lollars, so all's well that ends well

timmypix

I've got Bare Knuckle Mules in my PRS Bernie - I had them in my dearly departed Epiphone LP and missed them once it was gone, and they seemed to match the described character/output of Bernie's actual pickups (A4 with a bit more kick), so that worked out well. I love them, but the Bernie is quite bright acoustically and I do feel like they don't always have the low end they had in the Epiphone.

My actual Les Paul has Bare Knuckle Emeralds, which feel PAF-ish but more, which I really like. I thought the Mules were the Les Paul sound in my head, then I got the Emeralds and realised that's not entirely true. This LP had the '57 Classic/+ set in it when I got it and I remember thinking they were a bit flubby and weedy at the time, whereas the Emeralds do everything I could possibly want.

I've acquired a second Les Paul with the '57 Classic/+ set and I don't know if my approach has changed or what, but I'm actually quite happy with them. At first they sounded like they had a blanket over them but getting rid of the 300K pots and putting 500K pots in seems to have fixed that.

That said, the '57s feel very different to the Mules or the Emeralds. More compressed and less "open", and the neck has a big old low-mid hump which sometimes I like and sometimes bothers the hell out of me. The bridge has a slight upper-mid emphasis which I like, but I am still curious to try some other A2 pickups in here, both PAF and less-PAF. Curious to try the Creamery 59s, Bare Knuckle Stormy Mondays and Bare Knuckle Old Guards as and when I can.

PhilKing

I've gone through lots of pickups on my 52 conversion LP.  It came with Gibson 57's, but I changed them for an old set of Seymour Duncans, a JB bridge and a Pearly Gates neck.  Then I found Bare Knuckle pickups back in 2004.  Tim made me a set with an Emerald Bridge and Mule neck.  After a bit more discussion, we went with a new set, an A5 Mule bridge and an A2 Stormy Monday neck.  Played them for about a year and then I heard one of Tim's guitars with Black Dogs and swapped out the pickups for them.  I loved the Black Dogs and had them in for about 10 years, but about three years ago I saw that Wizz had a set of Paul Kossoff pickups in their line.  Since Kossoff has always been one of my favourite guitarists, I decided to try them.  After waiting about 3 months with radio silence, the pickups arrived and I installed them.  I actually was quite underwhelmed  with them.  Back in 2019 I was talking to Tim at BKP about them, and he has played my LP a long time ago and was asking me a few things about it.  We came up with an unpotted set with a Black Dog bridge and Riff Raff neck.  This actually gives me what I have been looking for and I can't see me changing them again (famous last words).

In my 1971 LP Custom I have the original T-Top in the neck, but have a Patent Number PAF with A5 magnet in the bridge.  This gives me another sound that I love.  

As a lot of people have mentioned, the PAF sound is not really a definitive sound and I think there is as much from the guitar and pickup combination and a lot of happy accidents.  Many original PAF equipped guitars have a hotter neck pickup and still create great sounds.  Other have be tweaked or rewound through the years (Peter Green's being the most famous, but Jimmy Page was supposed to have T-Tops on one of his LP's), which also adds to the confusion.

I think you just need to try a few to see what you actually like, and then try them on your guitar.  There is no guarantee that they will give you the sound you want on your guitar, even if they did on another one.  That's a lot of the fun of it.  I think there are a lot of great pickup makers and a lot of good pickups.  I've found that I am really a fan of Alnico 5 in the bridge pickup and that's what I have in many of my guitars now.  Even though there are arguments about what the magnets were in the PAF's, that's the sound I like.  Whether it is correct or a happy accident, I don't really know or care.  It's what my ears tell me I like.

thegummy

As has already been pointed out, it doesn't make sense that something could be the most accurate PAF copy because back then pickups weren't precisely would to an exact specification like they are now; they didn't even use the same kind of magnets in all the PAFs. The only thing it really means is vintage output humbucker.

More to the point though, is it not arbitrary to want a pickup to sound like an old 50s Gibson one even if that was a single thing? It seems it must be based on the idea of a legendary status where the ultimate goal is to replicate this golden example.

My own "journey" was similar to the OP's - I put Bare Knuckle Mules in and it sounded perfect so am happy. Honestly couldn't imagine bothering swapping between other sets of vintage humbuckers. I wonder if people who do are maybe hoping to get something that can't be attained by swapping pickups so they'll just continue to swap until they die or run out of money lol.

Nerine

I’ve never really had any PAF style pickups but I am quite familiar of their tone from listening to countless Les Pauls during a spurt of GAS I had for a ‘58/‘59 reissue burst. 

Anyway. My Suhr Alt-T has Thornbuckers in it. They are some of the nicest pickups I’ve tried. Even though the guitar isn’t of typical LP construction; this is semi-hollow swamp ash and roasted maple, the guitar really sounds so Les Paul like, it’s uncanny. 

If any of the reissue Les Pauls I tried sounded like this, I would have likely been more inclined to part with the cash. 

Upon further research, the Thornbuckers are indeed Suhrs take on the classic PAF design. 

Considering pretty much everything Suhr does is excellent, these are no different. They snarl and chime and grind. They sound very open and airy, too, though. They have this really nice “ping” to the upper frequencies. 

I cannot say enough good about them to be honest. They also aren’t prohibitively expensive to try out. 

Mine are nickel covered which are (according to the blurb) designed to develop a patina as they age. 

Best sounding guitar I’ve owned. 

Nicest and most characterful sounding pickups I’ve owned. 

thegummy

Nerine said:

Even though the guitar isn’t of typical LP construction; this is semi-hollow swamp ash and roasted maple, the guitar really sounds so Les Paul like, it’s uncanny. 

My "PAF copies" are in a Fender Strat and it sounds like a Les Paul to me.

If anyone could tell it wasn't a Les Paul (without seeing it obviously) I'd be impressed. I wouldn't put money on it that no one could but it would impress me if they could.

xscaramanga

I had Bare Knuckle Mules in my Les Paul for more than 10 years. They had great reviews and sounded great to my ears. People told me the guitar sounded great, so I was happy.

Then I read enough people saying that Mojos were even better, and I couldn't help myself, so I tried a set of Mojos.

I took pretty detailed recordings of the guitar with the Mules, using a Fractal AX8 so I could be sure to use an identical sound for before an after recordings. I then recorded the same riffs on the same patch once the Mules were in.

Funnily enough, there was a mistake with my order (I'd intended to go lower output), and the Mojos ended up having identical DC resistance to the outgoing Bare Knuckles (measured on the same meter, same room, same day). Unsurprisingly, the pickups sounded the same.

I downloaded some blind test A/B software and I couldn't even reliably tell the pickups apart on some of the clips I made.

After a lot of listening I concluded that the Bare Knuckle neck pickup had a hint of scratchiness I didn't like, while the Mojo neck was smoother. But the Mojo bridge was brighter and not quite as fat, and I often knock the tone control back a notch. Even there, I bet some time spent with pickup height and polepiece adjustment could make them sound the same. And I still can't be certain about those differences because, like I said, I could only correctly guess which pickup was which about two thirds of the time. 

Having gone through all that, I've concluded it's a waste of time to obsess over manufacturers. Two pickups with the same spec will sound the same. It's worth finding out if you prefer low wind or overwound pickups, and which flavour of magnet, but even there I think the differences are often overstated. I cannot fathom who would pay £1200 for that supposedly perfect PAF replica in the classifieds.

I've stuck with the Mojos because they were already in the guitar, and they're reverse zebras which look cool. 
 

mudslide73

I've been through a few (Timbuckers, BK, WCR, OX4 etc.) and it turns out what I was really looking for was a Blackguard Tele bridge sound with the tone rolled off a bit. There are so many variables I think it's just about finding a sound you like. 

FelineGuitars

I've played a great number and they all differ slightly and it can be down to a good match for the guitar they are in - that counts for something .

But from memory these stood out from the boutique offerings

BKPs - mules, and PG Blues get my vote (like others but they stray a bit from the PAF recipe)

Oil City - love the Beano and the PAT 63(for the PAF with an A5 twist)

Monty's - PAF (sounded simply on the money- not overly hot)

Cream T - still tinkering with these but the Whiskerbucker, BFG Banger  and Scan2 (Bernie Marsden Beast clone)

3rd Power _ really liking their MagFrag PraxXIS set ...these live in my Feline 20th Anniversary

Also the Throbaks and Tom Holmes ones we have fitted sounded great

Fifty9

The biggest thing I’ve learned from this thread is that Tim @ BKP must be minted the amount of Mules we’ve bought from him!