Why did Gibson never make the Casino ?

darcym

I've been doing some looking into the Epiphone Casino and Rivera, mainly for my own interest into the Gibson hollow body models as there are many that are similar visually but with some significant (and non-significant) differentiators.

I found myself quite liking the Casino and Rivera models, but I've only really had a reasonable amount of hands on time with the Casino and it was only a really cheap Epiphone Casino model from the late 90's/early 2000's (don't the exact year), and it really wasn't very good, partly due to the craftmanship of the guitar (sloppy bindings, weak/humming pickups,) and what I'd class as setup related problems (which where again down to the craftmanship of the guitar, but I'm sure a luthier and tech could have sorted them out with ease) such as the neck angle, action etc, so I don't think it was a fair comparison.

I appreciate that the original Epiphone was a different beast than the cheap dumping ground of the 90's and the more modern reboot of it's current brand, 

I was wondering a.) what the current generation of Epiphones are like - a Casino is quite appealing b.) why Gibson never did their 'brand' version of the Casino or Rivera as a more higher quality version ?

riffpowers

I think they made an epiphone elite version , but I’ve only ever seen 1 for sale !

https://www.reidys.com/blog/just-in-epiphone-elitist-1965-casino/

chris78

Gibson made a ES330 which is the same guitar. They're not as popular as the casino as seen as more jazz guitars for some reason

Jackobean

The 90's/00's Korean Casinos are quite highly regarded - doubt the current batch will be leagues ahead quality wise.

The USA Epiphone collection will be featuring a Gibson built Casino in the near future, i'd expect it to be on par with recent production line ES guitars.

ICBM

As chris78 said, the ES-330 is the Gibson version of the Casino. I suspect it's less popular because the most famous players of the Casino are the Beatles, and the most famous players of the 330 are Lloyd Cole and the Jesus & Mary Chain - and J&MC rarely used it live, since they liked to use cheap junk guitars on stage...

There is no direct Gibson equivalent to the Riviera though - it wasn't too far away from the trapeze-tailpiece ES-335s, but with the Epiphone mini-humbuckers, which Gibson only later used in the Les Paul Deluxe and ES-325. The 325 was maybe the closest, but a rather 'cheapened' model.

stickyfiddle

They made the ES-330 which was literally the same guitar with a different headstock. 

Modern ES-330s go in and out of production but they’re marvellous things if you get a good one. 

IIRC the 330 has the neck join the body at the 16th fret whereas the modern Asian-made Casinos have it join at the 17th. I doubt it makes a huge difference to tone but I’m guessing Casinos are a bit longer as a result, but it won’t be by much

Alexlotl

I'm guessing it's mainly because The Beatles played Epiphone Casinos, not Gibson Casinos. The bulk of the guitar's cachet is tied to the Epiphone brand.

But yes, it's surprising there isn't some USA-made, super-expensive, clearly-Gibson-in-disguise option for them. It's not like Beatles gear tragics are short of cash!

jonnyburgo

Barrie Cadogan plays a mean Es330

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

IIRC the 330 has the neck join the body at the 16th fret whereas the modern Asian-made Casinos have it join at the 17th. I doubt it makes a huge difference to tone but I’m guessing Casinos are a bit longer as a result, but it won’t be by much

Some of them do, but not all. The ironic thing is that the 17th is actually the *correct* position geometrically, if you're deriving it from the single-cut/14th-fret join bodies that almost all archtops originally had - the 335 neck is too far out with a join at the 19th, and the 330/original Casino is too far in at the 16th. The visual clue to this is that on the 17th-fret ones, the bridge is parallel with the notches in the f-holes, as it should be...

guitars4you

When you compare many semi acoustic models of Gibson and Epiphone there are similarities but differences - The Riviera, Sheraton and Sorento for instance are not a 335 or a 125 but you can tell they are influenced by them - Yet the Casino and 330 are the only 2 guitars that are the same/identical, other than the brand name - Okay the Casino has had a short + long headstock variation, but essentially the same guitar 

But back in the early 60's, Gibson would have certain dealers stock their products - But Gibson could also make money selling  the same/similar guitar to different dealers, in the same town, via the Epiphone brand 

As others have suggested - The Casino has become more valuable/desirable following the Beatles connection + a later date other players - Otherwise the Gibson models have always outperformed the similar Epi model in price and popularity 

darcym

ok this thread has been too successful, I want a Gibson ES330, I've even seen one in an Olive Green, want this guitar now, how annoying. 

Thanks guys, appreciate the lesson and history.

ICBM

darcym said:

ok this thread has been too successful, I want a Gibson ES330, I've even seen one in an Olive Green, want this guitar now, how annoying.

@Hootsmon has an olive green Les Paul Junior he wants rid of, is that close enough?

Alterlifeson

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

IIRC the 330 has the neck join the body at the 16th fret whereas the modern Asian-made Casinos have it join at the 17th. I doubt it makes a huge difference to tone but I’m guessing Casinos are a bit longer as a result, but it won’t be by much

Some of them do, but not all. The ironic thing is that the 17th is actually the *correct* position geometrically, if you're deriving it from the single-cut/14th-fret join bodies that almost all archtops originally had - the 335 neck is too far out with a join at the 19th, and the 330/original Casino is too far in at the 16th. The visual clue to this is that on the 17th-fret ones, the bridge is parallel with the notches in the f-holes, as it should be...

Whereabouts can you tell the point at which the fret join is? On an acoustic it's pretty obvious as the shoulders lead right up to the fretboard. I just can't see it on electrics.

stickyfiddle

darcym said:

ok this thread has been too successful, I want a Gibson ES330, I've even seen one in an Olive Green, want this guitar now, how annoying. 

Thanks guys, appreciate the lesson and history.

If it helps at all, those olive green ones are from the same 2018 run as my old red one and my new red one and the other 3 I tried in the shop first time round. All were/are excellent guitars. 

ICBM

Alterlifeson said:

Whereabouts can you tell the point at which the fret join is? On an acoustic it's pretty obvious as the shoulders lead right up to the fretboard. I just can't see it on electrics.

Where the end of the body binding is. Even if it’s unbound you should still be able to see the joint, unless it’s a through-neck double-cutaway!

darcym

ICBM said:

darcym said:

ok this thread has been too successful, I want a Gibson ES330, I've even seen one in an Olive Green, want this guitar now, how annoying.

@Hootsmon has an olive green Les Paul Junior he wants rid of, is that close enough?

you know if it's a double cut I'd possibly be interested

jpfamps

ICBM said:

I suspect it's less popular because the most famous players of the Casino are the Beatles, and the most famous players of the 330 are Lloyd Cole and the Jesus & Mary Chain - and J&MC rarely used it live, since they liked to use cheap junk guitars on stage...

Grant Green?

ICBM

jonnyburgo said:

Barrie Cadogan plays a mean Es330

Who?

jpfamps said:
Grant Green?

Who?



Actually I'm familiar with both their names, although not their music. They're not quite the Beatles or the Jesus & Mary Chain though...

darcym said:

you know if it's a double cut I'd possibly be interested

It's a single-cut '57 Les Paul TV reissue, but the TV 'yellow' is distinctly at the khaki end of the range than straw yellow.

Jim54

jonnyburgo said:

Barrie Cadogan plays a mean Es330

He does and his red ES330 has always made me want to try one. 

lustycourtier

Jackobean said:

The 90's/00's Korean Casinos are quite highly regarded - doubt the current batch will be leagues ahead quality wise.

Ive owned about 10 casinos/Rivs from 90s to 2019, and new ones are just as good as the 'fabled' 90s MIK.   

 Its a bit like the MIJ 'law suit' and Fender MIJ guitars nonsense. Only important to sellers.  

meltedbuzzbox

lustycourtier said:

Jackobean said:

The 90's/00's Korean Casinos are quite highly regarded - doubt the current batch will be leagues ahead quality wise.

Ive owned about 10 casinos/Rivs from 90s to 2019, and new ones are just as good as the 'fabled' 90s MIK.   

 Its a bit like the MIJ 'law suit' and Fender MIJ guitars nonsense. Only important to sellers.  

Someone on the Internet will always wax lyrical about certain years of production and factory locations etc

A good guitar is a good guitar, a bad guitar is a bad guitar. The rest of the information doesn't really mean much if the end result is a bag of spanners