PA Advice

jdbwales

Hi, my band are looking to upgrade our PA - we’ve been using an old Yamaha system and I’m after some advice. 

We’re a covers/function band with a drummer who can hit bloody hard, but can also control himself - we play clubs, events, weddings and sometimes pubs. When we’re not using an in-house or provided PA our Yamaha is a little rough and indistinct, and underpowered at 250w/speaker. 

 So, requirements - powerful female lead vocals and one backup male vocal, and some guitar line-out DI’d in for balance and spread are the essentials. 

We are not blessed with a huge budget (around £650) - my wife (singer) and I are buying and we have 2 young kids so are not hugely flush at the moment. 

For me the best option so far are the Alto TS312 or 315 powered speakers for FOH with a small mixer and the potential of adding a sub later. We have monitors.

So, questions:
1) would you recommend a 12 or 15 inch speaker for vocals with a hint of guitar? I wasn’t hugely keen on the 15s we used to have for vocals. 

2) If we go with 12s, is it worth getting a sub so we could also stick the kick/bass player through it for spread?
3) if we go with 15s, would they effectively allow us that possibility of adding bass/kick without a sub without muddying everything else? 

4) Any experience with the Altos? They seem to have good reviews and warranty, but I’m very much open to ideas on other brands/setups. 

Thanks in advance. You can hear the band here if it helps: 
www.soundcloud.com/undercovercoversband 

fastonebaz

My band is also buying the alto 312s I've only heard good things about them.  Go for it. 

Musicwolf

I would definitely go with the 12" rather than the 15" for vocal clarity and I would even look at 10" with the option to add a sub in the future should you require more bottom end (say if you were to use backing tracks).

I've been using a pair of Yamaha DXR12's for a number of years for vocals + guitar (Helix) but I've also used them with backing tracks and they've served me well.  I have an Alto TS210 (so that's the older generation) which gets used as a monitor or sometimes for practice as it is much lighter.  It's ok (I've certainly used a lot worse) but it sounds harsh when compared to the Yamaha's.

John_A

For vocals and a bit of guitar I’d go for 10”There’s a single Yamaha dxr10 on here for £275ish if you could get another for the same price it would be a lot better that the Alto

Id also recommended RCF 710’s. A sub could be added later if you felt it was lacking for bigger gigs, or if you start mixing drums

Danny1969

Alto make some OK gear for the price but, like most modern stuff (class D) it will go from functioning fine to destroying it's self if pushed past quite a narrow boundary. Take the claimed power outputs with a huge pinch of salt. Put the claimed TS312 1000 watt RMS up against something like an HK112 speaker and you will see what I mean. I tend to get the 10" active speakers in for repair because singers are attracted to the light weight and technical spec. They are fine for very small gigs like small pubs with quiet drummers. if you push them near to their limits then they will break.
The 12's are more robust but again need to be kept well within their limits. The HF driver blows quite easy which frankly is bad design as the whole point of active speakers is the internal amplifiers have a processed power output rather than flat response to protect their driver. These are available and not that expensive though. 

I think there's an OEM in china that makes a lot of these low end active speakers for Alto and EV because I've seen some that were nearly identical when we fixed a batch of them for a PA hire company. 

I know modern class D lightweight speakers is what bands think they should go for these days but in all honestly for the same money you could get a power amp like a PV2600 or similar and a set of robust passive speakers. Be a lot more robust and reliable. 

jdbwales

Thanks gents - a lot to think about here! 

Still tempted by the Alto 12s (largely abandoned the 15s idea, thanks) but reliability is paramount. We’re not stupidly loud as a band but not quiet either, so realistically we’d be probably running the speakers at around 30-50% volume venue depending, so @Danny1969 hopefully it’ll stay within the limits of reliability. I’ve replaced tweeters and drivers in speakers before so can do that if needs be, but I’d also want to get the Altos (if we go for them) from somewhere with an extended warranty to se on the safe side. That said, extended warranty means nothing in the heat of the moment if speakers die at a gig...

I’ve also found a reasonably priced set of RCF710a speakers online but in all honesty haven’t even considered 10s! 

That said, there’s a PV2600 online for £230 which i’m eyeing up now too...any recommendations for solid speakers to go with it? 

Danny1969

These are a good price, specially if they accept a lower offer 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HK-Audio-Premium-Pro-15X-Passive-speakers-PAIR/254802304720?hash=item3b53669ed0:g:8hUAAOSwnEFfz6-o

RickLucas

A pair of these and a power amp will do you.
Electrovoice SX300 PA Speakers Used | eBay

Danny1969

RickLucas said:

A pair of these and a power amp will do you.
Electrovoice SX300 PA Speakers Used | eBay

Yeah, we have the active versions of those and for a small box they are quite impressive. We use them with the 760 subs though so I haven't heard them on their own. 

RickLucas

Danny1969 said:

RickLucas said:

A pair of these and a power amp will do you.
Electrovoice SX300 PA Speakers Used | eBay

Yeah, we have the active versions of those and for a small box they are quite impressive. We use them with the 760 subs though so I haven't heard them on their own. 

We have the active 12s too, but if you're on a budget, passive speakers and a separate amp is the way to go.

maltingsaudio

Not an Alto fan and be aware that warranty won’t necessarily cover a blown speaker. I would also suggest a good look on the 2nd hand market at these times as a lot of companies struggling. My money would be on separate amp and passive speakers.
SX300 would do the job nicely but would be better with a sub.

Stratavarious

Second hand is probably a good shout now.

I am very happy with our 12” Altos.  Plenty loud and clear.  Done 3 solid years before lockdown.. not a hint of a problem (touch wood). Indoors, outdoors, marquees, etc.

Sometimes we put a Roland eDrum kit through. Handles those transients fine.  Rarely need to use more than half power on the dial.

pintspiller

We use Alto 12" tops and 15" sub. Two guitars, one bass, three female voices. Does our job.

ESBlonde

Forget alto, for your budget you can get a pair of new turbosound Milan M12 with Klark technik power and processing. Thomann have them at £239 each!
They will sound amazing compared to anything at double the price.
Check the online reviews from the pros.

firepaulmusic

For years we have been using RCF310s with bass bins. All active, with Behringer XR18 and iPad. The 10“ cabs sound sweeter to my ears than a 12”. The system is brilliant and can handle any functions we have played. If we do an outside gig we can double up on the tops for spread, still using the two bass bins. We recently upgraded to RCF 710s which are superb. For your budget you could find used 310s for £300 a pair, used XR18 for less than £300. Add a single bass bin later. I would always go quality used rather than new budget...

JayGee

My (admittedly limited) experience suggests that 15” drivers in a 2-way enclosure do no favours for vocals, and that Alto stuff isn’t awful but it’s some way below the “sweet spot” on the diminishing returns scale for quality (in either audio or build quality terms). 

My last band invested in a set of Yamaha DXR12s and everybody was very happy with the results.

hassleham

I have a set of passive 12" Altos which would do a good job and leave you a bit in the kitty to add a sub later (which i would definitely recommend!). Give me a shout if you're still looking when lockdown is over.

We run two 18" subs with 12" tops and the sound is brilliant.

Danny1969

JayGee said:

My (admittedly limited) experience suggests that 15” drivers in a 2-way enclosure do no favours for vocals, and that Alto stuff isn’t awful but it’s some way below the “sweet spot” on the diminishing returns scale for quality (in either audio or build quality terms). 

My last band invested in a set of Yamaha DXR12s and everybody was very happy with the results.

This is a common miss-conception which mainly comes from peoples experience with cheap passive speakers with very primitive crossovers. With better quality drivers which are very strong but light and active crossovers enclosures with a 15" bass / mid driver and horn can sound superb in the upper midrange. In our hire stock we have 2 HK Linear Pro systems which are 15" and horn and it's such a good system for projection with clarity  we brought another identical system. 

Most bands also don't tend to get the best out of their PA speakers because they either don't have the necessary  knowledge or they only have a primitive desk with very basic EQ and no compression. If you remove all the crap the speaker can't reproduce and get the dynamics under control it makes a world a difference both in the sound and the longevity of the speaker. 

maltingsaudio

I would add to @Danny1969 post and say you get what you pay for! Comparing HK linear to Altos is really chalk and cheese both quality and price wise. In isolation you will get a reasonable sound out of the Altos, put them side by side to a more professional system and you will clearly hear the difference. It is obviously a balance between your pocket, expectations and return on investment which will guide your choice but that’s why we play squires and aspire to PRS!

The myth is the bigger the speaker the better the bass response which is partly true but it is mostly down to cabinet design. As Danny says “ If you remove all the crap the speaker can't reproduce and get the dynamics under control it makes a world a difference both in the sound and the longevity of the speaker. ”

I’ve just added HK Linear7 to my hire stock, highly recommended to those with deep pockets

ICBM

maltingsaudio said:

The myth is the bigger the speaker the better the bass response which is partly true but it is mostly down to cabinet design. As Danny says “ If you remove all the crap the speaker can't reproduce and get the dynamics under control it makes a world a difference both in the sound and the longevity of the speaker. ”

This is also why with more traditional systems, a dedicated sub and a smaller driver in the top/mid cabs is always better than trying to put everything through one cab with a larger driver. If you don't force the main driver to try to reproduce the deep lows - which it still can't very well, but absorbs a huge amount of power in the attempt - the result is always clearer sound, as well as stressing the speakers and the amps less.

With modern systems and more precise crossover cutoffs you might be able to get around that, but I'm not sure - personally I would always use subs for anything other than vocal/guitar mixes.

koneguitarist

I agree with most of the comments, we went to buy some RCF 315A 15” active speakers with a horn quite a few years back. After trying some different combinations, we bought the RCF310A 10” speakers. Vocals were so much better. We intended to buy the Active sub for bigger gigs but to be honest never needed it.
I tend to think of pa as sound reinforcement, in other words it amplifies your sound, but doesn’t create your sound. 

So smaller quality PA with band being quieter worked for us. Not everybody’s choice I admit.