Outside playing in non-resolving situations

What's Hot
GulliverGulliver Frets: 848
So, since in lockdown I've not been able to go outside, I figured I'd try and learn to play outside a bit.

I'm sort of getting there with resolving harmonies - I'm getting better at adding some diminished, altered or Lydian dominant sounds in to my playing (I'm coming from a very blues background so I'm not going mad over complex changes, just adding a bit of outside weirdness to some blues)

However - there's still that tension and release between the V and I at the end of the turn around, so adding things there makes sense.   But how would I go about adding some outside sounds to a tune like All Along the Watchtower, where there isn't that natural tension going from the V to vi at the end of the chord sequence.
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom

Comments

  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    A classic way of getting a bit outside on non resolving dom 7th chords is Lydian Dominant as you mentioned. Cool thing about it is that is only a 'bit' outside in that it's only the #4 that's outside whereas altered for example  has a lot more going on that is outside.
    Check out my Blues lessons channel at:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2021
    I’ve literally just come off a lesson with Greg Howe where we were talking about playing outside in a non-V situation!

    Watchtower is quite straightforward - on the way back up to the C#m (which is the tonic), on that B chord (which is the VII) you can assume it’s a turnaround - it’s basically the 1st inversion of the V7 (actually strictly speaking it would be a v7, which would be the G#m7), ie you can play judicious notes from G# altered scale (which for reference is the same notes in A melodic minor, or D lydian dominant)

    it’s quite quick so you’d have to:

    - be very quick, or
    - use the odd special note, judiciously and sparingly, just to get the flavour, or
    - start early, while you’re still on the A chord. 

    Edit - In fact, reading your post, it seems like you’re calling the C# minor the vi chord. That’s really unhelpful for you - it’s the tonic, it’s what the song is “in”, therefore it’s the 1 chord. And because the song is minor, it’s the i chord (as opposed to the I). 

    (I really do think the Nashville system is unhelpful by the way, and there's why.)

    So all you have to do is find the V and play altered (super locrian) on that V, during the turnaround. Even if the V is never actually played. As I mentioned, the V would have been the G# in Watchtower, so just play G# altered in the run-up to the tonic (which is C# minor).

    That rule of thumb applies to all music basically. Just know the tonic, and play super locrian over the dominant for instant outside-flavour. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    As @viz says, superimposing G# Altered will work nicely. It’s all about where you start your phrases, the strength of direction and how you resolve. So even though there isn’t actually a V chord, it’s being implied with your note choice as you get back to the i chord. 

    Another option is to not worry about using scales at all, but use chromaticism to create tension. Using chromatic enclosures targeting chord tones or notes of the pentatonic scale on strong beats works really well. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • GulliverGulliver Frets: 848
    viz said:
    G# altered scale 
    Brad said:
    G# Altered 
    Turns out that yes, that does work.  Excuse the dogshit playing - altered scales aren't yet a firm fixture of my vocabulary...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdq2OfIBsl8
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Gulliver said:
    viz said:
    G# altered scale 
    Brad said:
    G# Altered 
    Turns out that yes, that does work.  Excuse the dogshit playing - altered scales aren't yet a firm fixture of my vocabulary...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdq2OfIBsl8
    Perfect, you got the idea spot on
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2021
    Another thing you can do, which is arguably  easier and also even more outside, is to play the half-whole (or whole half, or symmetrical diminished) on the absent G#. 

    The easiest way to find the right version is to move to the G# fret (4th fret), and play on the D string frets 467, on the G string frets 457, on the B string frets 467, and on the top E, frets 457. 

    So it’s 467, 457, 467, 457. 

    And because it’s a repeated scale pattern you can shift up 3 frets to 7 9 10 etc, or 10 12 13 etc. 


    It’s not as easy to listen to as altered but if you pick out notes you want to hear it will sound nice and spiky


    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.