String tension

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4on64on6 Frets: 86
edited February 2021 in Guitar
Maybe I should say APPARENT string tension. 
Does anyone have insight into what causes an otherwise similar guitar to have the feel of different string tension??? Same scale length. Same basic construction and timbers. Same strings. 
I just bought what I think is my dream guitar or close to. After a whole slew of semi acoustics including various Ibanez’s, Yamahas, Washburns etc.
I have an Ibanez LR10 which, for me, has an ideal neck profile (something I find very important). Ideal sound. Ideal look. Etc...Just had it set up and it plays really well... except!!... the string tension seems that bit tighter than the other guitars some of which I’m still in the process of letting go of. 
I THINK I’ve noticed in the past that just playing the damn thing actually makes it feel easier (how can that be???) and I know that I don’t cope well with a really low action (I’m playing 11-48s so I really need to get under the strings if I’m going to do big bends and reasonable vib). 
Any insight welcome, ta! 
I
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  • skunkwerxskunkwerx Frets: 6838
    I think break angles and also length of string behind the bridge to tailpiece and from nut to tuners can make a difference. 

    Other than that, possibly the action/string height could give perceivable differences. 

    Just playing them could be that you are just getting used to the differences. 
    The only easy day, was yesterday...
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    1. String gauge and scale length, both of which contribute to tension. They’re obvious, and I’m sure you will have thought of them.
    2. Thickness of the core wire in wound strings.
    3. The longer the string the easier it is to bend. So how much string length is there beyond the nut and behind the bridge? Six a side makes it easier to bend the top strings than three a side.
    4. Action height. Too low makes it harder to grip the string when bending.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    edited February 2021
    I saw that Larry Carltons 335 has an unusual bridge to tailpiece measurement as it was originally a trapeze tail... and the comment was that by serendipity it’s just right. ...So the tech used the same measurement for Robben Fords Epiphone.  
    So here are the questions..what is that magic measurement?....and... tailpiece screwed right down or up a bit??
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    I should add I’m talking specifically about 335 derivatives. Had a couple of Yammy SAs and Ibanez AS and AMs plus a couple of Jap Washburns that we’re well up in the race. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Length beyond nut and bridge
    Vibrato system
    Break angles at saddle and nut
    Action height and relief
    Stiffness of neck
    Fret height

    Probably in about that order.

    But string gauge makes more difference than any of them except possibly the first two, so if it feels too stiff you might as well use a lighter gauge. The rest of them are too small to bother about other than out of curiosity.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
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  • Alex2678Alex2678 Frets: 1088
    Sassafras said:
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
    I thought they were just differently selected gauges for strings 2-5
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    edited February 2021
    See Rolands comment about core thickness. Some different makes or materials feel slightly different. My initial question was more about using the same strings on very similar guitars but they still have notable differences in feel. 
    Another example might be.. I’ve rarely played 2 strats that felt exactly the same... some just feel super easy to play and some are quite a fight... even with the same strings on. 
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    Alex2678 said:
    Sassafras said:
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
    I thought they were just differently selected gauges for strings 2-5
    I'm not sure.
    I seem to remember someone on here talking about some manufacturers offering strings of the same gauge but with different tension.
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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    Sassafras said:
    Alex2678 said:
    Sassafras said:
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
    I thought they were just differently selected gauges for strings 2-5
    I'm not sure.
    I seem to remember someone on here talking about some manufacturers offering strings of the same gauge but with different tension.
    I didn't think that was possible but maybe it is.

    Maybe they're getting confused because the thinnest and thickest strings are the same gauge so they're assuming the rest are?
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    Dunno really, maybe with different alloys it's technically possible now.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8591
    Sassafras said:
    Alex2678 said:
    Sassafras said:
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
    I thought they were just differently selected gauges for strings 2-5
    I'm not sure.
    I seem to remember someone on here talking about some manufacturers offering strings of the same gauge but with different tension.
    Thinner core plus heavier winding gets you back to the same overall string gauge, but is lower tension.
    Sassafras said:
    Dunno really, maybe with different alloys it's technically possible now.
    IMHO steel, nickel, and stainless steel ought to have different tensions, but I've never done the research to work out how much, and whether it's enough to be relevant.


    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    To follow up, a lot of it was string height as advised.. I had taken it up once already since having the guitar set up ...but the tech (Tim Martin ... now in Charing X Road.. highly recommended) had managed to get the action incredibly low on this one it seems. I’ve got it to a point where I can now confidently bend all over the neck.
    Newby is an Ibanez LR10 which I absolutely love many things about. The outgoing is the Ibanez AM70 advertised on here and possibly in the near future a Yamaha SAS and if I’m honest with myself, the LR10 is not quite as easy playing as the AM (Tim also set that up years ago and I do remember fine tuning that a few times before I’d got it Goldilocks). It’s subtle but it still feels like it has more string tension even with a very similar string height. I was at the same point with the Yammy a year ago and I swear I just played it a lot and everything seemed to fall into place??? The guitar gods waved their magic wand??? I really have gone lockdown crazy?? I’m just chatting shi’?? Who knows? I will persevere with the LR10 cos I’m totally in love with everything else about it. 
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  • best thing for string tension - Slacken off strings to C tuning - lovely bendiness, use pitch pedal to bring back into tune... :)
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    edited March 2021
    best thing for string tension - Slacken off strings to C tuning - lovely bendiness, use pitch pedal to bring back into tune...
    Garlic???.....and bread??? 
    .... actually !!! If it’s drop C then I can switch the pitch off and play along to my favourite Kings X tunes !
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 7732
    Check the relief, often if it's a bit too much and you tighten the rod, it slightly lowers the action making it feel slinkier.
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    Check the relief, often if it's a bit too much and you tighten the rod, it slightly lowers the action making it feel slinkier.
    All good advice but in think Tim had got that spot on. It had a very low action with no buzzes. (He, allegedly, was Pages tech at some point...so he probably has an idea?). 
    I’m coming to the conclusion that string height is critical and very personal when it comes to the balance between ease of playing and bend ability, particularly with heavier strings.  If I’m right, I hear a lot of the greats like a pretty high action. Then I was confused to read that Mr Beck likes it pretty much as low as the tech can get it. 
    Maybe I should have stuck to straight ahead jazz and never worry about bending a note. Denny Dias got away without bending in the Dan for years unless my ears deceive me. 
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  • moremore Frets: 230
    edited March 2021
    Roland said:
    Sassafras said:
    Alex2678 said:
    Sassafras said:
    Can't you get strings of different tensions these days?
    I thought they were just differently selected gauges for strings 2-5
    I'm not sure.
    I seem to remember someone on here talking about some manufacturers offering strings of the same gauge but with different tension.
    Thinner core plus heavier winding gets you back to the same overall string gauge, but is lower tension.
    Sassafras said:
    Dunno really, maybe with different alloys it's technically possible now.
    IMHO steel, nickel, and stainless steel ought to have different tensions, but I've never done the research to work out how much, and whether it's enough to be relevant.


    There are strings with different size core wire .  Thinner core wire is used for strings used on some antique slide guitars . You can retain the gauge with a lower tension.  The higher, normal , tension could damage the fragile instruments .  You can get thicker cores for stings used for drop tuning , and retain the tension of standard tuning .  The different winding material used doesn't have much effect on tension. 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    edited March 2021
    To be honest I find this quite strange why two guitars built the same with same string gauge etc can feel so different. Friend of mine in Dorchester has a 65 Tele, which has always been very stiff tension wise, could only play it with 9s. We were both comparing our teles at the time I had a 73 with 10s and mine definitely felt lighter to play. No rhyme no reason behind it. 
    Anyway a few years later he rang me up and told me it was looser now, hadn’t done anything to it, but feel had changed. Like I say cannot explain it. 
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    Thankyou koneguitarist. At last! Someone who admits to the same experience. Maybe I’m not going mad after all. All the scientists here will tell you it’s just physics and get you measuring things with feeler gauges and micrometers. 
    ... but I know guitars have a soul, a spirit which is individual to each one of them!!! 
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