Pontins 'undesirable guest list'

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 11316
    Inhale away Jackson Jeffrey Jackson. 
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  • bloodandtearsbloodandtears Frets: 1071
    I gig annually at Pontin's Southport and have witnessed the destruction they cause.. not surprising the management have tried to refuse their attendance albeit via blatant discrimination.

    Perhaps increased powers to move troublemakers on wards are the solution.
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 19883
    The bottom line is that travellers are known to have behaviour patterns that are unacceptable to a large proportion of society in general.  Whether that view is considered 'acceptable' in an allegedly egalitarian society is irrelevant - the facts are the facts.  It may be considered discriminatory, and probably is, to judge every individual traveller with the assumption that they are going to display antisocial behaviour.  However, for a business trying to protect its reputation and attractiveness to the majority of clients, what is the answer ?  Do they allow everyone to book and then have to deal reactively with incidents and complaints as and when they occur - on the camp, with all the unwelcome attention that brings - so as not to prejudice the whole traveller community, or do they adopt a policy where they blanket-ban potential troublesome groups from ever setting foot there ?

    Discrimination like this is already in place elsewhere for groups such as hen or stag parties (the assumption, based on evidence, that they are likely to disrupt the peace), children under a certain age, numbers of children of a certain age in shops (the assumption being they will steal).  Nobody kicks up a fuss about that discrimination, but when you group people by a different category to exclude them, it's suddenly no longer acceptable.  The crucial point is whether the discrimination is justified or not.  In this case, they handled it poorly.  They were clearly attempting to exclude the Irish traveller community but roped in a lot of non-traveller Irish people too (and non-Irish with Irish surnames).  That stupidity aside, is it unreasonable for a business to exclude minority groups, however categorised, because the evidence shows that they are more likely to cause trouble than other groups ?  I don't believe it is.  A business isn't obliged to provide a service to you if they choose not to, as long as they have reasonable grounds for the discrimination.  Excluding people because of, say, their skin colour, sexuality or religion would clearly be unreasonable unless there was clear evidence that people of that skin colour, sexuality or religion were much more likely to cause trouble.  The same way they do with kids in shops and hen parties etc.  Obviously this isn't the case - as skin colour, sexuality or religion has no bearing at all on how much of an asshole you can be.

    My, admittedly slightly abstract point is that we shouldn't have a knee-jerk balk reaction to the concept of discriminating against a group - purely because it is a group that is considered sacrosanct and must not be criticised.  If the evidence proves that members of that minority group actually are more likely to cause trouble or exhibit behaviours that make the majority uncomfortable then it's up to the owners of that private business as to whether to exclude that group, in my opinion.

    Excluding people for membership of a group just because you don't like that group is not the same thing though - that's just plain old racism/sexism/trans/homophobia which is often 'justified' by the use of false evidence and misconceptions about that group.

    Jeez.... I gotta do some work FFS !!!   I get drawn into these threads and end up writing a bloody essay every time ! :lol: 
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  • JayGeeJayGee Frets: 785
    Sassafras said:
    axisus said:
    Sassafras said:
    I remember a thread not so long ago where lots of us were moaning about how awful gypsies and travellers were.
    So, is it OK for us to criticise them but not for a company that might've had bad experiences with them?
    You honestly can't see the difference between a specific bunch of unpleasant travellers and random human beings that have nothing on them other than a blacklisted surname???? Wow ...
    That's very patronising, I'm not a fuckin moron.
    Of course I can see the difference.
    I just wonder how we would handle the situation if we were running a place that had been trashed, possibly suffered physical attacks to our staff and customers, as well as financial loss.
    Pontins aren't advocating gassing or sterilising travellers, they're just safeguarding themselves from further trouble.
    Mrs JayGee works at a branch of a well known budget hotel chain. They have had issues ranging from low-level antisocial behaviour (raucous behaviour late at night, leaving rooms in an unusually messy state, not vacating rooms by the agreed checkout time, non-compliance with smoking restrictions, damage due to carelessness, etc, etc) through to outright criminality (threats of, or occasionally actual violence against staff or guests, sexual harassment of female staff members or guests, deliberate destruction of property, etc, etc).

    The incidence of those issues is significantly higher amongst some readily identifiable groups than others, particularly when group bookings for social/family events (e.g. weddings) are involved. As a result measures have been put in place (nothing as blunt as blacklisting by surname - things like limits/conditions on cash payments, ID requirements, additional requirements/restrictions on access to car parks for vans and/or large caravans, etc, etc) which make their establishments somewhat less attractive to those groups. And if that means (which, looking at the period over which those policies have been developed it demonstrably has) that my wife doesn’t end up having to do unexpected and unplanned shifts cleaning (literal) shit out of places where shit has no business being or coming home in tears after having to lock herself in the staff break room while the management try to get the police out to deal with the nastier incidents quite as often then I’m fine with it.

    It’s all very well saying that you shouldn’t prejudge a whole group on the behaviour of some individuals, but barring individuals, attempting to recover costs, and being willing to call the police really doesn’t help much when the same (really, really, really nasty) issues keep turning up again and again with representatives of that group...
    Don't ask me, I just play the damned thing...
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  • ColsCols Frets: 2715
    Ah, discrimination against anyone with an Irish brogue.  Not a new topic.

    https://youtu.be/WYvw8MefblU 

    In response to @Emp_Fab’s comment - no, it’s not reasonable to discriminate against Irish Travellers on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave.  It’s against the law to do this, a clear breach of the Equalities Act.

    It is legal to exclude specific people or groups on the basis of previous conduct.  You can’t, however, refuse service on the broad basis of race or ethnicity.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 19883
    edited March 3
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 7288
    edited March 3
    Cols said:
    Ah, discrimination against anyone with an Irish brogue.  Not a new topic.

    https://youtu.be/WYvw8MefblU 

    In response to @Emp_Fab’s comment - no, it’s not reasonable to discriminate against Irish Travellers on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave.  It’s against the law to do this, a clear breach of the Equalities Act.

    It is legal to exclude specific people or groups on the basis of previous conduct.  You can’t, however, refuse service on the broad basis of race or ethnicity.

    That is the correct way to do it, but it might not be practical though.  The only way to do that would be provide names, ID, and photos of everyone in the group.  Anything less than that wouldn't work.  If I book a big family group, and we cause trouble, they can ban me from booking next time, but how are they going to stop my wife from booking, or my sister-in-law?

    They would have to ask for names and photo IDs of everyone who booked, and their whole group.  A lot of people wouldn't want to to that and they would lose a lot of business.

    The other alternative would be for them to use facial recogntion software, but that's not always reliable, and imagine the press headlines about Pontins using facial recognition software on punters.

    The correct solution is for the police to go after the ones who are behaving like this, and get them punished severely as a deterrent, but I'm not optimistic about that.  There was a recent article in the Evening Standard about a pregant woman who was mugged.  It was caught on CCTV, and apparently there were witnesses, but the CPS didn't take even take it to court.  If people are getting away with mugging, then the police aren't going to deal with this type of behaviour.

    There are other issues with Traveller communities as well.  My wife is a teacher, and they have children from traveller communities in school.  Some of them leave school and start working when they are 10 or 11.  They never go to secondary school.  Some of them don't even finish year 6 in primary school.

    It's difficult because I'm against too much state regulation, but somehow the authorities need to get a grip on these lifestyles.  Maybe it's some kind of unannounced inspections of traveller sites, for the sake of the kids if nothing else.  If the kids aren't in school, and they don't have suitable books and material for home schooling, then take the kids into care.  If the kids are out at work when they are 11, then take them into care.  If they find lead from church roofs, or copper stolen from railway signalling systems, then put them in jail.

    They would probably cry that it is discrimination against their lifestyle, but they should be subject to the law like everyone else.

    The authorities are not doing their job properly, so Pontins are trying to do something to protect themselves.  If Pontins don't try to deal with it, then they will lose customers, but the legal ways of addressing it will also lose them customers.  People won't want to go on holiday where there are extensive ID checks and it feels like a prison camp.  What Pontins are doing is definitely wrong, but they are in a lose-lose situation.
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 8784
    edited March 3
    I saw two 70 odd Yr old traveller fellas scrapping on the ferry once. They were shit faced, some young monobrows were half heartedly trying to split it up but they were so pissed they could barely stand anyway, huge potato headed guys rolling about everywhere. Absolute carnage so it was. 
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 5386
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    It probably is, but a lot do, and there's also Gay cake bakers (NGS) - that incident certainly was
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 5879
    Emp_Fab said:


    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    We got around that one many years ago by booking a hotel sub nom "The Convocation of Anglican Clergy" and turning up in ecclesiastical vestments.  Don't imagine anyone was fooled for an instant but as we kept the drunken antics strictly off site the management seemed to let it ride.  

    Good times.  Still have the tattoo, and the scars.
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2253
    At the risk of sounding like a Lefty Liberal Latte Lapping Luvvie (I actually picked that term up from the BBC News comments section) perhaps everyone, including organisations, Political Parties and businesses should 'judge' people as individuals rather than by some meaningless check list?
    Just a thought.
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 5879
    edited March 3
    AlexC said:
    At the risk of sounding like a Lefty Liberal Latte Lapping Luvvie (I actually picked that term up from the BBC News comments section) perhaps everyone, including organisations, Political Parties and businesses should 'judge' people as individuals rather than by some meaningless check list?
    Just a thought.
    Top marks (and a wiz lol (was conflicted)) for the alliteration!
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • ColsCols Frets: 2715
    edited March 3
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    In short, yes.  Private businesses like pubs and clubs have the legal right to determine who can come onto their premises or not.  If someone attempts to enter without permission, they’re committing trespass and can be ejected.

    There are very limited circumstances where it’s not legal to bar someone.  The first is where 
    where it’s a club and the barred person is a member, in which case there’s a contractual relationship.  

    The second is where the decision to bar them is on the grounds of sex, race, disability, religion or sexual orientation.  This breaches Equality legislation.

    So you can bar Seamus O’Reilly, Paddy Flanagan and Micky Wallace for behaving like a pack of dicks.  But you can’t bar them for being Travellers.  



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  • NeillNeill Frets: 612
    Emp_Fab said:
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    I neither know nor care, but we have expressly excluded stags and hens from our establishment for years, and we are also very careful about school groups now.  It is all based on experience and my answer to anyone who queries whether it is legit is well if you had had a couple of really unpleasant - and expensive - experiences, what would you do?  There is also the fact that we are next door to a retirement/nursing home.  

    Though I wouldn't use as blunt a tool as surname blacklisting I do trust my instincts regarding phone and email enquiries and I would be very dubious about someone walking in off the street these days.  The last time I gave someone the benefit of the doubt resulted in a very unpleasant experience for another guest which could have ended very badly indeed.  If we were ever taken to task regarding our right to take in who we please I would simply close the business, it's that important to me.   
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 2503
    There's plenty of Travellers with English surnames and plenty of the settled population with Irish surnames.
    It's just Racism.
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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 9798
    I notice the name Fury isn't on that list, so presumably Pontins would welcome Tyson, Hughie, Peter and co with open arms?  Plenty of money to spend and I reckon they enjoy their food.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 2503
    and Billy Joe Saunders.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 2503
    I grew up in a caravan and moved between Essex and Cork a lot.
    People were no different to normal Irish or English people. 
    Good and Bad people in EVERY community.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 7288
    Cols said:
    Emp_Fab said:

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    In short, yes.  Private businesses like pubs and clubs have the legal right to determine who can come onto their premises or not.  If someone attempts to enter without permission they’re committing trespass and can be ejected.

    There are very limited circumstances where it’s not legal to bar someone.  The first is where 
    where it’s a club and the barred person is a member, in which case there’s a contractual relationship.  

    The second is where the decision to bar them is on the grounds of sex, race, disability, religion or sexual orientation.  This breaches Equality legislation.

    So you can bar Seamus O’Reilly, Paddy Flanagan and Micky Wallace for behaving like a pack of dicks.  But you can’t bar them for being Travellers.  




    Are Travellers defined as a race?  Most of them seem to be white European in looks.  I know the traditional gypsies were Romany, but is that the case with the Travellers we are talking about?  Do Romany people have Irish surnames?

    I honestly don't know the answer to that.  I'm not trying to troll.

    This has got me thinking about how we define race.  What happens with someone from the West Country with a broad Zummerzet accent?  Is it racism to make jokes about their accent if you live 100 miles further East in the home counties?  Is it Geordieism to make jokes about Ant and Dec?  I would say no to both of those.

    For those of us who are white European in origin, is it right to break things down any further than White European?  I think there is an argument that Travellers are a (sub)culture rather than a race (if they are not of Romany origin).  It's not discrimination to ban subcultures.  If I decided to ban young men with hoodies, and their trousers around their ankles, nobody would bat an eyelid.

    At the same time, banning based on name is wrong.  If you allow that, then you give people free rein to ban Patels, or Singhs, which would definitely be racist.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 2503
    Romany's originally came from Northern India. Travellers came from Ireland.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 11316
    Pontins were banning people on Irish surnames - with the best will in the world that has to be defined as racist. 

    How race is viewed under UK law:

    In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality. For example, you may have Chinese national origins and be living in Britain with a British passport.

    Race also covers ethnic and racial groups. This means a group of people who all share the same protected characteristic of ethnicity or race. 

    A racial group can be made up of two or more distinct racial groups, for example black Britons, British Asians, British Sikhs, British Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers.

    You may be discriminated against because of one or more aspects of your race, for example people born in Britain to Jamaican parents could be discriminated against because they are British citizens, or because of their Jamaican national origins.

    Inhale away Jackson Jeffrey Jackson. 
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  • DefaultMDefaultM Frets: 3464
    edited March 3
    Why don't they just add an 'are you a gypsy' tick box when you apply for the holiday?

    Edit: bad idea, I forgot they can't read.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 2503
    I still can't.
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  • strtdvstrtdv Frets: 2084
    Emp_Fab said:
    @Cols ;Thankyou for the info.  I didn't know that. I still think it's reasonable for a private business to exclude a group that is known for causing aggro, whether or not a particular individual from that group has any previous for it.  Clearly the law disagrees with me here, but if I ran a hotel, I would do everything I could to keep undesirables out - and I'm sure a significant number of establishments do implement policies to achieve that on the QT.

    Just out of curiosity, is it also illegal to discriminate against stag / hen parties on the basis of assumptions on how they will behave ?
    No it's not, because being on a stag/hen do isn't a protected characteristic, whereas ethnicity is.

    Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
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  • ColsCols Frets: 2715
    DefaultM said:
    Why don't they just add an 'are you a gypsy' tick box when you apply for the holiday?

    Edit: bad idea, I forgot they can't read.
    This is exactly the kind of casual bigotry which becomes self-perpetuating.

    Sure, Travellers have low educational achievement.  But how motivated would you be to engage academically if you knew that you would face overwhelming discrimination in any kind of employment outside your own community?

    It seems that the travelling community is the last remaining one against which it’s socially acceptable to make sweeping assumptions.  You wouldn’t dream of posting “Oh no!  A (insert ethnic minority here) family has moved into our village!” on your local FB page.  Yet somehow it’s acceptable to react to travellers setting up camp nearby as if the Visigoths have just turned up at the gates of Rome.
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  • PhilW1PhilW1 Frets: 609
    So,what do Pontins do, turn a blind eye and ignore the fact that certain groups will run riot in their property, ruin other genuine holiday makers stays and ruin Pontins reputation (if they ever had one) or try and make a stand?
    I think it’s a lose lose for them.
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  • They're a private company. I'm told private companies can decide who they want and who they don't want on their private platforms.
    often you should certainly try to ascertain whether it is required that you caveat something or everything, depending on the substance of the supposed caveatation, so you don't look like a peen.
    TACOMA NARROWS BRIDGE DISASTER
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  • RobDaviesRobDavies Frets: 2412
    edited March 3
    I DJ’d a traveller engagement party once - it was very entertaining. The fighting was great, and the young ladies didn’t wear much. 
    Some of the fellas in attendance even helped me move some of my gear out to the car park - without even being asked.  Unfortunately the silly billy’s put several thousand quids worth of lighting and PA into the wrong vehicle ... totally innocent I’m sure. 

    When I asked if they could put it in my car, they offered to sell it to me. So there was clearly some kind of mix up on my part and they definitely weren’t sly or thieving or dishonest, or anything like that at all. Oh no. And the lovely tradition of ‘grabbing’ (witnessed first hand by me) isn’t sexual assault either.  Oh no, definitely not. 

    Fortunately, the police were in attendance due to the aforementioned punch up, and I did get my gear back but ended up two hundred quid down as another ‘mix up’ meant that party organiser refused to pay me, and the cheeky chappy also threatened to cut my throat from ear to ear if I didn’t fuck off home immediately.  I reckon he thought I must be tired after such a tough gig and needed to go to bed for some rest. 

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 8680
    ^ Love it ............so bloody true
    On a more serious note I have to agree about this grouping of people and prejudicial selected entry.
    I used to be in a minority group (about 50 years ago ) We were small ( in stature ) but every shop we were interested in had a big handwritten notice in the window ;
     SCHOOLCHILDREN  2 AT A TIME ONLY !
    Discriminating Bastards !
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  • ColsCols Frets: 2715
    They're a private company. I'm told private companies can decide who they want and who they don't want on their private platforms.
    I’m sure I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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