Fender Princeton and Champ reissue prices...has the world gone mad?

Voxman

When Fender brought these amps out, they were intended as starter amps for bedroom and small club players, with 8" and 10" speakers ( Princeton originally was 8") realistic prices that aligned with that more budget market, and were way cheaper than the big 2x12 or 4x10 amps aimed at pro players in the days when you needed a bigger frontline amp for bigger audiences.

I've been looking at the prices of these reissues. You might be able to save a little from shopping around.

A 68 reissue Princeton Custom Reverb £999, and the 64 Princeton Custom Reverb (albeit handwired) £1,849 (Andertons). These are just 12w amps with a single 10" speaker. A 65 Princeton Reverb is circa £1,200. 

A 68 reissue vibro Champ Reverb reissue Silverface, 5w, 10" speaker, £799. The hardwired Tweed 8" Champ is £1,049. 

These are all way more expensive than most of the bigger 1x12, 2x12 amps. 

I'm sure these are all nice amps, but I can't help thinking that manufacturers are cashing in on the desire for smaller amps, the 'mystique and hype' that surround these amps and customers being convinced that there's something magical about them.

Now, whilst I've never owned a Princeton, I did have the use of an original 8" Champ silverface borrowed from a friend in the late Seventies.  It was 'ok' as a home practice amp, but was really nothing special, and would break up fairly early on. My Laney Cub 12R at half the price kills it!

Consider that a 2x12 68 Custom Deluxe Reverb is £1099, a 40w Tweed Fender Blues Deluxe with 12" speaker is £799, Hot Rod Deluxe IV 1x12 40w, £749.

I'm sure I'm gonna get slated for this post, but I think Fender are taking the financial piss, cashing in, and customers are falling for it and being convinced, and convincing themselves, that these small amps are gold dust and sound magical.  

I appreciate that value and quality is percieved.  But in my view these prices for small amps are insane and the world has gone mad. 

I'll now duck for cover!! 

Winny_Pooh

Most things with a Fender logo TBH

Supro delta/blues kings seem better value in this spec range.

Voxman

Even the Andertons vids are acknowledging there are better priced options.  

dazzajl

The way the market is, home players seem to have more to spend. So Fender price accordingly, making the cool little Princeton more than the workhorse HRD. 

RaymondLin

I’ve always liked to get the Champ but it’s a lot of money and honestly not sure if it’s worth it, vs say getting a Tone King Gremlin.

HAL9000

RaymondLin said:

I’ve always liked to get the Champ but it’s a lot of money and honestly not sure if it’s worth it, vs say getting a Tone King Gremlin.

Indeed, if I had the money sitting around to buy a Champ I’d buy either a Gremlin or a Honeyboy 5.

DrCornelius

Honestly I prefer my Super Champ X2 to The Princeton reissue I owned before . I stuck a Ragin Cajun in the Champ and its lovely chimey and smooth . If you bought new the total cost will be around £500

munckee

DrCornelius said:

Honestly I prefer my Super Champ X2 to The Princeton reissue I owned before . I stuck a Ragin Cajun in the Champ and its lovely chimey and smooth . If you bought new the total cost will be around £500

I keep thinking about a speaker change for my SCX2 the clean channel is great and the modelling deluxe setting is so good its stopping me getting a tonemaster.  My only gripe is you can't use reverb and tremolo together.

I also have a 79 silverface champ whic is better sounding than my previous 68 princeton reissue.

DrCornelius

Well @munckee , you arent a million miles away from sunny Dorchester so when we are out of this crap you are welcome to come round and try mine and buy me a pint ;-)

I think it was @Dominic who originally put the idea in my head and it definitely feels less brittle and a touch warmer to me

munckee

@DrCornelius sounds like a great idea.  I'll get the train if there's beer involved!

I recovered my SCX2 in blonde, didn't do a very good job so will strip it and do it again at some point but it's 100% more irritating than tweed!

https://i.imgur.com/Ju1Fzno.jpg

matone

Yep ,ripoff time! Best vote with your ££ and buy elsewhere!!

Voxman

DrCornelius said:

Honestly I prefer my Super Champ X2 to The Princeton reissue I owned before . I stuck a Ragin Cajun in the Champ and its lovely chimey and smooth . If you bought new the total cost will be around £500

The new ones come with a Rajin Cajun, so just £399 or less. Nuisance you can't use tremolo and reverb together though.  A friend of mine has one and it's OK, but even though it has valves it just didn't feel like a valve amp to me. I'd still take my all valve Laney Cub 12R over it any day of the week and twice on Sundays.  But then I'm more of a Marshall man and the Cub has a Marshall circuit that suits me.  

Deadman

This is interesting I have to say. Had my eye on the SCX2 for ages. What are they like at home? Do they do break up at reasonable levels? And now @Voxman do I need to buy a Cub instead? Bored with my THR10.

russpm

Some effects pedals cost £500 and above so £2k and upwards for an excellent amp isn’t ridiculous in my humble opinion.

munckee

Deadman said:

This is interesting I have to say. Had my eye on the SCX2 for ages. What are they like at home? Do they do break up at reasonable levels? And now @Voxman do I need to buy a Cub instead? Bored with my THR10.

On the modeling channel you can get lots of drive. On the clean channel it will break up a little with humbuckers at home volume. 

I have a THR5 which is great for night or early morning playing the scx2 is a totally different animal, you can play with a band or at home and you don’t need any pedals. 

Voxman

Deadman said:

This is interesting I have to say. Had my eye on the SCX2 for ages. What are they like at home? Do they do break up at reasonable levels? And now @Voxman do I need to buy a Cub instead? Bored with my THR10.

From outset I have to say I hated the THR10 and I simply don't get why these seem to be so popular and all the following will sound way better. 

The Champ models do give break up and higher gain (supposedly Vox and Marshall models) as well as cleans and you can customise tones via your computer. And the digital preamp design means you can play it really quiet too. I can't put my finger on it but the Champ modelling to my ears feel a bit, well 2- dimensional and it's tones don't do it for me. Most of the Fender models were nice as you'd expect but I thought the higher gain models weren't convincing and didn't really sound like a Vox or a Marshall and they sounded nasal. I also found some of the Fender models a bit too too bright and brittle (worse on the Channel 1) and they needed smoothing out..maybe the software might help here though.  

The Cub12R is loud enough for rehearsals and club gigs, but it's 1w input option means you can push the valves at sensible home volumes - and the new Super Cub has a gain boost too. Its 12" speaker helps to give it a fuller, bigger sound than the 10" in the Champ, plus it has a 8/16 ohm extn cab out ( the Champ does have an 8 ohm out though), a good digital reverb, and series fx loop.  I've put mine through a 4x12 and it just sounds huge but the Champ might well be similar here.

It's all personal and we all hear different things of course, but for me even the 1x10 Vox Valvetronix VT40X feels and sounds way better than the Super Champ to my ears and the modelling and fx are much more convincing ... they just seem to sound and feel warmer and more valve-like. However, if I was going to go for the Valvetronix I'd get the VT100X 1x12. It's still only £229, and still very light and compact, and you can still play it as soft as you want. But then you'll have an amp with a fuller sound that can easily be seriously loud to rehearse and gig with too. 

I know it might sound ridiculous to say the Valvetronix feels more valve like than the Champ because the Champ has a real multi valve power stage with preamp modelling. But I just don't think that Fender has got the formula for mixing valves and digital modelling quite right.

Vox on the other hand have been doing modelling way longer and the valve and modelling mix in these amps just works beautifully. You can even set how hard the valve is pushed, and select class A/ Class A/B. You can also add a floor controller for much more flexibility and control than the Champ's simpler switch pedal option gives. 

As ever, each of these - Super Champ, Valvetronix and Cub have their supporters and each have their charms, pros and limitations. All are good options for home use (even the VT100X can be played whisper quiet). With the Cub you don't get effects (aside from reverb) but its brilliant with  fx and mfx and of the three it's a genuine all valve amp. The advantage of the Valvetronix is it's light weight, lower price, huge tonal range with really good amp modelling and nice fx. But resale wont hold as well as the Champ or Cub. 

Ideally you need to try them side by side to see which you like best...perhaps something to look forward too after lockdown? 

Dominic

I think the Super Champ is a stunning little amp

DrCornelius

Tbh I don’t use the modelling side of the X2, to my ears it sounds like a Princeton on channel 1 and it’s a great pedal platform. The onboard Reverb is decent and I stick a Timmy in front and it does what I want 

dindude

Don’t think they’re too expensive, people want everything for a bargain these days. I’ve been eying up the 64 Princeton for a while but none in stock and obviously can’t try one at the moment in store. Handwired, pine cab, Alnico speaker, it ain’t gonna be cheap.

Ive had the Super Champ XD in the past (and the smaller Vibro Champ XD) and the channel 1 is a fabulous sounding thing. 

Stuckfast

The Vibrochamp does have a *really* good tremolo.

bencowling81

I’ve got the X2 head with matching cab and swapped the stock speaker out for an Eminence Lil Texas that I bought on this forum. Clean channel sounds much more Fendery with the new speaker. It’s the amp I used pre lockdown for rehearsals and small gigs. For home playing I keep the amp volume up at around 4-5 and turn the volume on the guitar down.