Fender Princeton and Champ reissue prices...has the world gone mad?

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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited March 2021
    Tbh I don’t use the modelling side of the X2, to my ears it sounds like a Princeton on channel 1 and it’s a great pedal platform. The onboard Reverb is decent and I stick a Timmy in front and it does what I want 
    I get that, and if all you need is the channel 1 tone to use as a pedal platform with the on board reverb, that's great, particularly if you're after a genuine Fender clean tone. As I said, I'm more of a Marshall man myself and I also like the classic Vox AC15/30 tones, hence why for me the Cub 12R is a nice fit as it's based on a Marshall circuit. I'm also fortunate enough to have a few different amps, several of which I can play at really low volumes.

    The Fender amps I really do like are the Bassman as it not only has a nice clean that's not overly bright and tiring, but I just love that lush organic bottom end growl breakup you get as you crank it. The Marshall JTM45 is based on the Bassman circuit and it has that similar thing going on.  My other favourite is the 1x12 Deluxe Reverb. 

    I have a few amps, and although it's now just too big and heavy to take out, set up, pack up etc, I now just use my Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX rig with AD212 extn cab, at home. As you'd expect, the Vox tones are very good. But the 4x10 Bassman model on it is also really good and I can get that growl at even very low home friendly volumes. 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • menamestommenamestom Frets: 4641

    I think the ‘65 reissue has drifted into too expensive territory, £1200 is a lot for a mid quality PCB amp.
    But they do sound great, such a classic circuit.
    Up against fancy boutique ‘improved’ versions I nearly always just preferred the PRRI.

    Disagree on the Super Champs with DSP preamps btw, I think they sound good but the all valve Princetons are a cut above imo.

    Value wise though If I was buying another at £1200 I’d just pay the extra for a handwired Fender or clone.
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  • SimonCSimonC Frets: 1391
    Like much guitar gear, there are diminishing returns as price rises.
    I tried both the X2 and 68 Princeton side by time and pondered for a long time.
     In the end I decided it was worth saving for the Princeton and haven’t regretted it for a minute.
    I suppose there is an element of desire involved as well, a bit like settling for an Epi, when you really want a Gibson.


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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31367
    dazzajl said:
    The way the market is, home players seem to have more to spend. So Fender price accordingly, making the cool little Princeton more than the workhorse HRD. 
    This. People who do things other than music for a living are way more likely to have disposable income for "cool" amps and don't have to balance cost against what it will earn them. 

    That said, I enjoyed gigging my Princeton reissue, but then it was only £650 five years ago.

    Charging the best part of a grand for it is just marketing and nothing to do with production costs.
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  • dazzajldazzajl Frets: 5653
    That A/B video very nicely confirming what we all know. The Princeton is a lovely sounding amp, warmer and richer than the SC. But even right next to each other the difference isn’t huge and the far cheaper option is more than good enough to let you enjoy your playing. As for an audience, if you played one gig with the SC and the next with the Princeton, I doubt anyone would even notice. 

    I wonder what the percentage of money spent on guitar gear is driven by desire, snobbery and prejudice? Given that I know I was happy with a Bullet Tele into a Mustang III amp, in my case it’s  about 97%
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    Tbh I don’t use the modelling side of the X2, to my ears it sounds like a Princeton on channel 1 and it’s a great pedal platform.
    The interesting thing is that channel 1 is modelling as well, contrary to popular belief :).

    I do think it’s quite a nice amp, especially with a speaker upgrade. The inability to have reverb and tremolo at the same time is unforgivable though - it’s a Fender! What were they thinking?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • dazzajldazzajl Frets: 5653
    ICBM said

    .........What were they thinking?
    We’d rather like to you upgrade to the Princeton, probably? 
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    Fender can rest on their laurels.
    They've got the pedigree that'll always make people buy them.
    Don't suppose Fender and Gibson will ever go out of fashion.
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  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3851
    Wow @voxman you've really piqued my interest with the Vox VT, thank you. I know what I'll be doing all afternoon now!
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited March 2021
    dindude said:
    Don’t think they’re too expensive, people want everything for a bargain these days. I’ve been eying up the 64 Princeton for a while but none in stock and obviously can’t try one at the moment in store. Handwired, pine cab, Alnico speaker, it ain’t gonna be cheap.

    Ive had the Super Champ XD in the past (and the smaller Vibro Champ XD) and the channel 1 is a fabulous sounding thing. 
    Bargain isn't really the right word. I think good value for money is more the thing. As I said, value is perceived so if you perceive spending over £1800 on what essentially is a home/ studio/practice/ small club amp with 12w and a 10" speaker, and it's what you want, then it's good value for you.

    And there's no denying, especially hardwired, that this will be a nice amp in its genre. I haven't heard the different Princeton options, but I would say that if I was in the market for a Princeton I wouldn't make any decision until I'd thoroughly tried the different variants out side by side.  

    So I'd either wait until Covid allowed, or I'd book an appointment with a good dealer to try these out with my own guitars.

    A word of caution. I wouldn't necessarily assume that hardwired is going to necessarily be the best sounding for you. It might be of course, but dont go by the spiel.

    Some years back I had an opportunity to gain a favourable discount on an AC30 and having owned a 6 input in the late 70s, I was tempted to treat myself. So I arranged to try out all 3 of the new versions side by side.  Before trying out these then latest incarnation of the Vox AC30  (2×12 Alnico Blues, 2 x Greenbacks, Fawn hardwired with Alnico Blues) I thought the Handwired would be the best, followed by the Blues and the Greenbacks last.

    But in practice I found the hardwired was darker and broke up earlier. It also was purer in that it had none of the modern touches such as an fx loop. The Blues in the standard AC30 were brighter and louder than the Greens with earlier breakup and had a bit more of the famous chime, but were a tad brittle and lacked warmth. My favourite was the cheapest option with the Greenbacks that just did it for me as the tone was a better fit for the Blues and classic rock I played. I realise the speakers weren't broken in yet and tone will change a bit, but the underlying characteristics would still be there.

    Back to perception of good value. Regardless of how nice these might sound, for me personally spending £1000-1850 on a 12w 10" speaker amp wouldn't be good value. 

    I'd also be wary of all this vintage hype. A true story.

    In my early twenties a lifetime ago my gigging amp had to go in for repairs  and I needed a second amp quickly for some pub gigs we had booked.  In those days I knew next to nothing about amps other than if they sounded nice. I went to a music store in Edgeware and in the window there was an old Marshall combo. Plugged it in and it sounded nice so I bought it for £90.  The guy told me it was a 50w Marshall. Not knowing what it was I sold it for £200 (long story) to Vintage & Rare (then in Earls Court) who must've seen me coming. Single biggest gear mistake of my life. It was actually an 18w 2x10 1958...often referred to as a mini blues breaker, made in around 1968. Arguably one of the rarest Marshalls ever made, these sell now for £5-10,000!  

    Here's the point. Marshall made Handwired reissues ...akin to the Fender Princeton 64. Both hyped up 're their 'glorious' tone and pedigree etc.  But having owned and gigged an original, sure it was a nice little amp, that was just about loud enough for gigging, but far from the best sounding Marshall ever...like the Princeton, it was for home & small clubs.  In 2014 when the reissue 1957X came out, they were around £1,200. But there is no way today I would spend that or its equivalent as it just wasn't 'that' good. It's simply been hyped beyond all proportion and I suspect the same applies to all Fender and Marshall reissues. 

    Pains me to do so, but here's a pic of the 1957 I had - the amp I didn't know (& neither did the store in Edgware) what I had. 

     
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • EskerEsker Frets: 80
    I think a lot of the problem with the super champ X2 is that people tend to like the blackface side and will always be left wanting a real Princeton..I had a superchamp and I’ve tried boutique Princetons, but PCB or handwired, its just an incredibly sweet sounding amp, perfect for home use and with a more sensitive speaker can be gigged. I personally don’t buy the “PCB is crap and unreliable” train of thought. Those Fender reissues are rock solid and will be running perfectly for years to come.
    I bought my Princeton new in 2016, stuck an eminence GA SC64 in it 2 years ago and haven’t looked back. Sure, sometimes I gas for a swart or tone king, but I’m pretty sure I’d be underwhelmed....so for me £1149, which is what I recall paying, was money well spent.
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  • dazzajldazzajl Frets: 5653
    Of course the amp that should be ringing the death knell for the Princeton is the TM Deluxe Reverb. It does everything the Princeton can, quite a few things the Princeton can’t and it’s cheaper. 

    Of course I also know it won’t really dent Princeton sales at all 
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    dazzajl said:
    Of course the amp that should be ringing the death knell for the Princeton is the TM Deluxe Reverb. It does everything the Princeton can, quite a few things the Princeton can’t and it’s cheaper. 

    Of course I also know it won’t really dent Princeton sales at all 
    The TM certainly looks good, is a bit bigger than a Princeton but is really light at 23lbs. A few things might put some folk off though:
    1. It's digital modelling so however good it sounds (and reviews say it's blindingly good) it's unlikely to win over the tube purists. 
    2. Being digital, whilst it's £2-300 cheaper than a Princeton, history shows that resale prices are likely to be hit quite hard. 
    3. It's a tad bigger than the Princeton...And whilst not hugely bigger, an appeal of the Princeton to some is it's small size.

    Having said that, if I needed a really lightweight Fender amp to gig with and be a pedal platform, I'd personally be all over it. 23lbs even I can carry easily!  =) :)

    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • noisepolluternoisepolluter Frets: 789
    edited March 2021
    I’m sure I paid a good couple of hundred quid of the cost of my 65 PRI just for the name, even taking into account US construction costs. And yes, it would be nice to have paid less.

    However, if I tot up all the amps I’ve moved on, all the not-quite-theres, all the speaker upgrades, valve swaps etc before I finally bought the Princeton it, would probably come to a fair bit more than that. 

    Basically, what I was after all the way along was a Princeton, nothing more or less. And the cheapest option for something that sounds *exactly* like a Princeton, with a valve driven spring reverb and a bias trem, is still a Princeton. As soon as I played it, it was absolutely crystal clear - *this* is exactly what I’m after. 
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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    If pricing of music kit were logical, the price of said kit would correspond to some computation based on the quality and features. But it's not and it doesn't.
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  • SPECTRUM001SPECTRUM001 Frets: 1553
    Regarding the 5w Vibrochamp, I was very happy when I read about its forthcoming release. I was equally disappointed but not surprised about the £799 retail cost.

    There will be a massive market for people like me who have been searching for a small valve amp with a classic silverface (or similar) tone.

    The beancounters will have said - these are worth £4-500, so charge an extra £300, and see how they sell. For anyone with the cash (ie not young hard up musicians), there is every possibility they will pay more to achieve what they want. The price may well come down if the public resist the temptation.

    It is all very cynical - but it is business.
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  • SPECTRUM001SPECTRUM001 Frets: 1553
    The Cornell Romany (mentioned on a separate thread) is marginally more expensive and possibly better (though obviously very different).

    Nevertheless an interesting comparison.
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Regarding the 5w Vibrochamp, I was very happy when I read about its forthcoming release. I was equally disappointed but not surprised about the £799 retail cost.

    There will be a massive market for people like me who have been searching for a small valve amp with a classic silverface (or similar) tone.

    The beancounters will have said - these are worth £4-500, so charge an extra £300, and see how they sell. For anyone with the cash (ie not young hard up musicians), there is every possibility they will pay more to achieve what they want. The price may well come down if the public resist the temptation.

    It is all very cynical - but it is business.
    And I think that's hit the nail on the head B) - hence my comment that I think Fender's pricing is taking the piss. 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31367
    dazzajl said:
    Of course the amp that should be ringing the death knell for the Princeton is the TM Deluxe Reverb. It does everything the Princeton can, quite a few things the Princeton can’t and it’s cheaper. 

    Of course I also know it won’t really dent Princeton sales at all 
    No, because when it plays up you just put it out for the bin men. 

    Having spent an entertaining couple of hours yesterday having to update the firmware on a piece of equipment which just decided it wasn't going to boot up any more my days of buying expensive guitar gear I can't fix myself are over.

    With PA and studio gear I have to have a constant eye on the horizon, planning for the next upgrade or replacement, but my guitar amps will outlive me so I just don't have to consider it. 

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  • SPECTRUM001SPECTRUM001 Frets: 1553
    @Voxman - yes I totally agree with you. Sadly, Fender's sales and marketing policy isn't pointed at "here's a great deal/bonus to you guys". 

    In fact, I think they think they are giving us a great deal/bonus by actually manufacturing the amp. And in some ways they are - I for one have been hankering for one, so I guess I shouldn't complain.
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