Countries' suspension of AZ/Oxford vaccine

Emp_Fab

I see the Netherlands has become the latest country to suspend use of the AstraZeneca jab over concerns about blood clots.

This makes it the sixth country to do so alongside Denmark, Norway, Bulgaria, Iceland and Thailand.

The W.H.O. has consistently said there is no evidence to link thromboses to the vaccine and AstraZeneca themselves have published data that shows that the incidence of clots is actually lower in AZ vaccinated groups than the general public - so what's going on here?

Why are these countries suspending use of a valid vaccine in the middle of a pandemic if the W.H.O. and AZ are telling the truth.  Something doesn't add up.

Looking at the data, so far thrombolytic events have been reported in 37 people out of a vaccinated group of 17,000,000.  That's 1 in 460,000.

I'm happy to take those odds.  

siremoon

There has been a tendency during this pandemic to forget that people get ill and develop conditions all the time.  A proportion of people will experience blood clots and DVT who haven't had a vaccine and a proportion of people will experience blood clots and DVT who have.  Maybe the AZ vaccine slightly increases the risk but suspending it sounds disproportionate to me as some of those small number of cases would no doubt have happened anyway.  Also I haven't seen any reports on the outcomes of those cases.  Can't help thinking there is an element of political game playing in this given the AZ history and origin. 

BloodEagle

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links

digitalscream

It seems pretty obvious to me. There's so much misinformation out there that the number of people refusing a vaccine (and publicly trying to persuade others to) is statistically significant; this includes the whole "not tested properly" thing.

So...as soon as there's even the slightest whiff of a problem, they halt distribution temporarily to avoid giving those fucknuts any ammunition. It's not a question of whether there actually is a problem, but rather whether there's a chance that the optics might result in fewer people taking up any vaccine. I'd imagine there's a fairly standard calculation involved there, because people's stupidity is nothing if not predictable.

Caffeine_Vampire

I've got my first jab tomorrow. I won't be refusing the AZ shot if it's offered. Bloody panic merchants. 

Stevepage

My sister In law surprised me yesterday by stating she won’t have the vaccine because it’s “poison”. Didn’t have the energy to argue with her, she’s not the brightest spark at the best of times so why waste the energy. 

The continent really does need to pull its finger out and get on with it.

chris78

It's just a disaster for those countries. We've already seen evidence on the content of Germans refusing AZ, despite their sizeable stockpile. Now further doubt is being thrown up, without valid reason. This will only hurt the EU more and more. From our point of view, we need them to pull their finger out and get their citizens jabbed

ToneControl

chris78 said:

It's just a disaster for those countries. We've already seen evidence on the content of Germans refusing AZ, despite their sizeable stockpile. Now further doubt is being thrown up, without valid reason. This will only hurt the EU more and more. From our point of view, we need them to pull their finger out and get their citizens jabbed

why don't they send their AZ doses to a poor country if they don't want them?

ToneControl

Probably worth screening people for symptoms of clots before giving them the vaccine, to avoid people reporting long-standing symptoms after the jab

digitalscream

ToneControl said:

chris78 said:

It's just a disaster for those countries. We've already seen evidence on the content of Germans refusing AZ, despite their sizeable stockpile. Now further doubt is being thrown up, without valid reason. This will only hurt the EU more and more. From our point of view, we need them to pull their finger out and get their citizens jabbed

why don't they send their AZ doses to a poor country if they don't want them?

I'd guess that the cost of transport (given the temperature requirements) actually makes that uneconomical.

Majorscale

Maybe they will release the shipment that was meant to be sent to Australia now...

EU muppets...

Roland

Emp_Fab said:

Why are these countries suspending use of a valid vaccine in the middle of a pandemic if the W.H.O. and AZ are telling the truth. 

It’s standard practice to pause until the relevant people have read and considered the information. The Pause is likely to be short since the number of cases is fewer than would be expected in the general population over the same period Covid-19: Evidence does not suggest AstraZeneca jab linked to clots, MHRA says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56397592

Unless of course ...

siremoon said:

Can't help thinking there is an element of political game playing in this given the AZ history and origin. 

It’s easy to think that. 

siremoon

BloodEagle said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links

Is that the same Guardian that screamed and screamed and screamed that the failure to join the EU vaccine scheme would cost thousands of UK lives?  And screamed and screamed and screamed that increasing the gap between the two vaccine dose would cost thousands of UK lives?  Blah blah blah.  I think I'll wait for reports from a source with a better track record of not getting it completely wrong.

thebreeze

siremoon said:

BloodEagle said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links

Is that the same Guardian that screamed and screamed and screamed that the failure to join the EU vaccine scheme would cost thousands of UK lives?  And screamed and screamed and screamed that increasing the gap between the two vaccine dose would cost thousands of UK lives?  Blah blah blah.  I think I'll wait for reports from a source with a better track record of not getting it completely wrong.

Do you mean like the Government and their lot? 

BloodEagle

siremoon said:

BloodEagle said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links

Is that the same Guardian that screamed and screamed and screamed that the failure to join the EU vaccine scheme would cost thousands of UK lives?  And screamed and screamed and screamed that increasing the gap between the two vaccine dose would cost thousands of UK lives?  Blah blah blah.  I think I'll wait for reports from a source with a better track record of not getting it completely wrong.

Mate - I HATE the Guardian, so dont get me started

Rocker

Ireland has suspended AZ jabs until the suspected blood clots observation has been investigated further.

TheMarlin

Full official report of unwanted side effects, and deaths reported as a result of the vaccine, can be seen in reports on this NHS page. 

Only Pfizer and Oxford vaccines have reports so far, and run from 3rd Feb - 9th March, so just over a months data. 

https://www.sps.nhs.uk/articles/reporting-suspected-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-product-defects-and-counterfeit-products/

S56035

digitalscream said:

It seems pretty obvious to me. There's so much misinformation out there that the number of people refusing a vaccine (and publicly trying to persuade others to) is statistically significant; this includes the whole "not tested properly" thing.

So...as soon as there's even the slightest whiff of a problem, they halt distribution temporarily to avoid giving those fucknuts any ammunition. It's not a question of whether there actually is a problem, but rather whether there's a chance that the optics might result in fewer people taking up any vaccine. I'd imagine there's a fairly standard calculation involved there, because people's stupidity is nothing if not predictable.

A very valid point AND use of the word "fucknuts" in the same post.  Well done, Sir. :-D

WiresDreamDisasters

There are hereditary blood clot issues in my family that have caused numerous heart attack deaths. So I'm actually worried to hear about this. I've not been offered a vaccine yet. But I'm less worried about covid-19 than I am the long term susceptibility to blood clots which could kill me at an early age.

axisus

WiresDreamDisasters said:

There are hereditary blood clot issues in my family that have caused numerous heart attack deaths. So I'm actually worried to hear about this. I've not been offered a vaccine yet. But I'm less worried about covid-19 than I am the long term susceptibility to blood clots which could kill me at an early age.

Well, I have 'sticky' blood (hereditary) which can give rise to blood clots. I've had 3 in the past 7 years. I had the AZ about 4 weeks ago with no problems.

Heartfeltdawn

siremoon said:

I think I'll wait for reports from a source with a better track record of not getting it completely wrong.

So what paper has a better track record then? 

thebreeze

WiresDreamDisasters said:

There are hereditary blood clot issues in my family that have caused numerous heart attack deaths. So I'm actually worried to hear about this. I've not been offered a vaccine yet. But I'm less worried about covid-19 than I am the long term susceptibility to blood clots which could kill me at an early age.

It would be great if we could all decide for ourselves what the appropriate risks are to be taking.  So far as possible, made on an assessment of all the data and evidence available at any given time.  That seemed to be the case just over 12 months ago. It feels like now you'll have your civil liberties removed or be labelled a "fucknut" if you don't do immediately what you're told.

WiresDreamDisasters

Heartfeltdawn said:

siremoon said:

I think I'll wait for reports from a source with a better track record of not getting it completely wrong.

So what paper has a better track record then? 

Daily Mail, obviously.

Cols

thebreeze said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

There are hereditary blood clot issues in my family that have caused numerous heart attack deaths. So I'm actually worried to hear about this. I've not been offered a vaccine yet. But I'm less worried about covid-19 than I am the long term susceptibility to blood clots which could kill me at an early age.

It would be great if we could all decide for ourselves what the appropriate risks are to be taking.  So far as possible, made on an assessment of all the data and evidence available at any given time.  That seemed to be the case just over 12 months ago. It feels like now you'll have your civil liberties removed or be labelled a "fucknut" if you don't do immediately what you're told.

You can.  Assuming you live in the UK, vaccination has been entirely voluntary (but recommended) since 1907.  No-one has had their “civil liberties removed” by declining vaccination against COVID, no matter what Ian Brown might think.

Many countries require vaccination against certain diseases as a precondition for entry (for example, you won’t be allowed into large swathes of Africa without a vaccination cert for yellow fever), but this is nothing new.

Coming back to the topic at hand, so far a small number of people have suffered blood clots after vaccination.  That’s certainly worth investigating.  There’s also a similar number of people who didn’t get vaccinated and suffered blood clots, and an overwhelmingly large number of people who got vaccinated and didn’t suffer any ill effects.  

One event following another does not in itself imply a causative link; similarly, hanging out the washing this morning didn’t lead to the fact that it’s now raining.

It’s worth noting that the Norwegian authorities have prior history in quickly reacting to suspected adverse reactions from the Oxford vaccine (which eventually came to nothing).

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

In the meantime (and you couldn’t make this up), the EU have asked USA to send them surplus doses of the Oxford vaccine.  Biden has responded that the USA will keep their doses.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/politics/astrazeneca-asks-biden-to-consider-shipping-u-s-doses-to-eu

Emp_Fab

Ooh you are a one!

EricTheWeary

Cols said:

thebreeze said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

There are hereditary blood clot issues in my family that have caused numerous heart attack deaths. So I'm actually worried to hear about this. I've not been offered a vaccine yet. But I'm less worried about covid-19 than I am the long term susceptibility to blood clots which could kill me at an early age.

It would be great if we could all decide for ourselves what the appropriate risks are to be taking.  So far as possible, made on an assessment of all the data and evidence available at any given time.  That seemed to be the case just over 12 months ago. It feels like now you'll have your civil liberties removed or be labelled a "fucknut" if you don't do immediately what you're told.

You can.  Assuming you live in the UK, vaccination has been entirely voluntary (but recommended) since 1907.  No-one has had their “civil liberties removed” by declining vaccination against COVID, no matter what Ian Brown might think.

There’s a shed load of information on line, they give you additional information when you go for your vaccination, make sure you aren’t in a group likely to react and as said going for a vaccination is entirely voluntary. How any of that is impinging on your civil liberties or taking away your ability to make your own decision I don’t understand. 

thebreeze

If you're used to freedom of movement all this very much infringes on your civil liberties (that once were).  ^^ That's just one kind of information.  The other kind of information that I might want to apply in terms of assessing risk, is for example, the average age of someone dying from Covid is 80.3 whilst the general UK life expectancy is 81.2.  However, I have to be locked away in my house for a year and wear a mask at all times.  It looks highly likely there will be vaccine passports.  That was something they were going to make us have even before Covid (but had been very quiet about) and now looks like they'll push through under the cover of covid.  ID cards were dropped as an idea because people didn't want them.  It seems to me, by instilling fear and anxiety in the population they're going to get them via a different route. 

TheMadMick

I had a pulmonary embolism (clot on my lung) in 2017. I'm on anti-coagulants for the rest of my days. I grabbed the opportunity to get vaccinated (you can get jabbed if you prefer). That says it all for me.

Emp_Fab

The French have jumped on the bandwagon now too....

Cols

Germany and Italy as well.

It’s frankly unhelpful, unless the overall strategic objective is to sabotage their own vaccine rollout programmes.  The European Medicines Agency don’t see any evidence of a connection between the vaccine and thrombosis. Nor, too, does the World Health Organisation.  Ireland’s deputy chief medical officer has gone to some length to stress that there is no evidence of the two being linked.

Shutting down vaccination programmes on the basis of a handful of tenuous cases is absolutely the worst and least safe action to take.  The front page headlines questioning “Are vaccines are safe?” are invariably followed some time later by much more low key articles admitting “Yeah, turns out there wasn’t an issue after all”.

Unfortunately, mud sticks and the overall effect is to plant the seeds of doubt in the minds of people.  Now there’s those like @thebreeze who have absolutely no intention of receiving the vaccine, and will happily seize the story as validation for their own position.  There’s a rather larger number of people who are simply worried about the vaccine, need a bit of reassurance, and when they don’t receive it from their own governments will choose to either delay or avoid getting vaccinated.  

End result - vaccine rollout is delayed, more people die unnecessarily and the virus has more time and opportunity to mutate to more infectious or more harmful strains.

WiresDreamDisasters

@Cols ;

I'm not sure it's fair to characterize @thebreeze in that way tbh. 

I think you do raise a good point about mud sticking, and it almost being like handing antivaxxers a weapon I suppose. But at the end of the day, millions of lives are potentially at stake here. A few weeks moratorium to get to the bottom of things seems sensible to me.