Domestic Vaccine passports

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  • Nick13Nick13 Frets: 678
    munckee said:
    Nick13 said:

    I'm sure people will accuse me of tinfoil hatting this but....

    Fast forward 10 years, there is another "migrant crisis" fabricated by the press.

    The government: "we can fix this, all we need is to digitise the vaccine passports (which will likely already have happened)  and then enable location tracking on them so we can issue them to any migrants and know where they are, we'll also need to do it for uk residents but a small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree"

    Boom, if you exceed the speed limit you are automatically done.

    Visit a gay bar they know you are into gay bars

    Go to the bookies they know you like gambling

    Etc


    That honestly wouldn't bother me.  I'm not doing anything to worry about, apart from the animal porn but that's not illegal.

    In a society that's supposed to be "free" that's just a crazy attitude.

    Not all laws are sensible.  There's a decent debate on the legalisation of cannabis, visit a place where you can buy some from someone they know is selling, police at your door within an hr...
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 6670
    I'm not sure how I feel about it.

    One thing I am curious about though - What if it wasn't government mandated, but private businesses brought in their own policies around it? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a restaurant might, on the grounds of creating the safest environment for their customers, turn someone away who hasn't been vaccinated.

    I appreciate that to some, this would be a vast over reaction to what they perceive as a very slight risk from a virus they're not worried about. I just wonder whether they'd boycott that restaurant for the rest of their days etc
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  • PudWudPudWud Frets: 125
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
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  • PudWudPudWud Frets: 125
    Nick13 said:
    PudWud said:
    Gandalph said:
    PudWud said:
    Nick13 said:
    Gandalph said:
    Here we go...
    Anyone who thinks this is a good idea and fancies handing out even more power to the state you need to have a serious word with yourself! 

    Exactly, I don't understand based on how the uk government conducts itself, anyone would think for a second that over time, this will not turn into something far more sinister.
    What exactly do you envisage here? You do realise that your health records are already stored on a database, and the government already has personal info on you in the way of passports, driving licenses, HMRC, national insurance, census etc. 
    Yes of course I realise that but the last time I checked I didn’t have to flash any of these to gain access to any bar, restaurant, cinema, concert, football ground, etc...
    My response was more to Nick regarding the 'something more sinister', as though simply having a document or online document stating whether or not you've been vaccinated is any different to any other health records, or other government authorised personal documentation. 

    The part about showing it to get into public places is something I'm all for, for the reasons in my other post. 

    I'm sure people will accuse me of tinfoil hatting this but....

    Fast forward 10 years, there is another "migrant crisis" fabricated by the press.

    The government: "we can fix this, all we need is to digitise the vaccine passports (which will likely already have happened)  and then enable location tracking on them so we can issue them to any migrants and know where they are, we'll also need to do it for uk residents but a small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree"

    Boom, if you exceed the speed limit you are automatically done.

    Visit a gay bar they know you are into gay bars

    Go to the bookies they know you like gambling

    Etc

    Again... fuck me.

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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 8512
    Nick13 said:
    munckee said:



    That honestly wouldn't bother me.  I'm not doing anything to worry about, apart from the animal porn but that's not illegal.

    In a society that's supposed to be "free" that's just a crazy attitude.

    Not all laws are sensible.  There's a decent debate on the legalisation of cannabis, visit a place where you can buy some from someone they know is selling, police at your door within an hr...
    I'm not talking about all laws though, I'm talking about a record of who is vaccinated, with no impediment to those who can't be.  They can already track you by your mobile phone anyway and your bank card and CCTV.  Most of the 'freedoms' at risk are the freedoms to opt in and out of laws as you see fit - which I don't agree with.
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 2294
    The government are probably keen to avoid vaccine passports simply because it will be a devisive issue amongst not just the public but also their own party.  I suspect that they will come (other countries / EU are looking at this as a way of opening up travel) but Boris is already trying to pass the enforcement onto individual publicans, airlines etc saying that it's 'up to them'.
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  • Nick13Nick13 Frets: 678
    edited March 25
    PudWud said:
    Nick13 said:
    PudWud said:
    Gandalph said:
    PudWud said:
    Nick13 said:
    Gandalph said:
    Here we go...
    Anyone who thinks this is a good idea and fancies handing out even more power to the state you need to have a serious word with yourself! 

    Exactly, I don't understand based on how the uk government conducts itself, anyone would think for a second that over time, this will not turn into something far more sinister.
    What exactly do you envisage here? You do realise that your health records are already stored on a database, and the government already has personal info on you in the way of passports, driving licenses, HMRC, national insurance, census etc. 
    Yes of course I realise that but the last time I checked I didn’t have to flash any of these to gain access to any bar, restaurant, cinema, concert, football ground, etc...
    My response was more to Nick regarding the 'something more sinister', as though simply having a document or online document stating whether or not you've been vaccinated is any different to any other health records, or other government authorised personal documentation. 

    The part about showing it to get into public places is something I'm all for, for the reasons in my other post. 

    I'm sure people will accuse me of tinfoil hatting this but....

    Fast forward 10 years, there is another "migrant crisis" fabricated by the press.

    The government: "we can fix this, all we need is to digitise the vaccine passports (which will likely already have happened)  and then enable location tracking on them so we can issue them to any migrants and know where they are, we'll also need to do it for uk residents but a small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree"

    Boom, if you exceed the speed limit you are automatically done.

    Visit a gay bar they know you are into gay bars

    Go to the bookies they know you like gambling

    Etc

    Again... fuck me.


    Yeah right now it may seem daft but wait a while.
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  • PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.

    Bye!

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  • Cirrus said:
    I'm not sure how I feel about it.

    One thing I am curious about though - What if it wasn't government mandated, but private businesses brought in their own policies around it? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a restaurant might, on the grounds of creating the safest environment for their customers, turn someone away who hasn't been vaccinated.

    I appreciate that to some, this would be a vast over reaction to what they perceive as a very slight risk from a virus they're not worried about. I just wonder whether they'd boycott that restaurant for the rest of their days etc
    I'd be more or less fine with that. If a business wants to commit seppuku by virtue signalling safety bullshit, let them. But if it's government mandated and enforced society-wide, leading STUPID FUCKING IDIOT UNWASHED MASSES to start abusing people in the streets because they're too fucking thick as pigshit to understand that not everyone has to make the same choices... then it starts to become an issue.

    And anyone who says this wouldn't happen just has not been paying attention.

    Bye!

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  • KittyfriskKittyfrisk Frets: 7558
    edited March 25
    @Musicwolf   'Boris is already trying to pass the enforcement onto individual publicans, airlines etc saying that it's 'up to them'.'
    Another shoot from the lip response from the bluffing buffoon.
    So, all the younger people that will be a huge proportion of pub users, cannot get in as there is no way they can be vaccinated, but older people can? Talk about a double whammy.
    I'm an old sod but this idea is absolutely, completely unjust and further penalises the innocent. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    As for having a 'Track & Trace' passport. Fuck that too...although I'll bet it wouldn't work.
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 8512

    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    They brought in databases of who taxes and insures their vehicles and speed cameras so the police don't have to pull you over machines can just fine you for non compliance - it seems the same to me.
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  • PudWudPudWud Frets: 125
    edited March 25
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    But in your example it was ethnic jews who were targeted... 

     The case for being vaccinated has already been made. It's there to see. If you choose not to get it you are a fucking moron (unless you are not eligible for it). If people are making a conscious decision to not get it based on bullshit faux-science and conspiracy theories, then unfortunately there has to bribery, for everyone elses sake. 

    As you said, not everyone has to make the same choices, but when it affects other people I draw the line. Being vaccinated isn't a purely selfish choice to protect the individual, vaccination is a collective effort. 

    Might be a bad analogy here, but I don't care if people want to drink drive (because they think they're safe to do it) as long as they only kill themselves when they crash. But when they plough into another car and hurt others who weren't consenting to be a part of the drink driving, that's when the line must be drawn. 
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  • StevepageStevepage Frets: 1893
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    I’ve had to explain this so many times I’m just tired of it now. Slap “it’s for your safety “ or “because PANDEMIC” and you could get away with pretty fucking much anything
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  • PudWudPudWud Frets: 125
    edited March 25
    Stevepage said:
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    I’ve had to explain this so many times I’m just tired of it now. Slap “it’s for your safety “ or “because PANDEMIC” and you could get away with pretty fucking much anything
    Except the vaccine is for your (and others) safety... If you don't understand that then you can't be helped.
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  • StevepageStevepage Frets: 1893
    I have no issue with having a vaccine, I have issue with the authoritarian shit that may precede it
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  • WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16590
    edited March 25
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    The case for being vaccinated has already been made. It's there to see. If you choose not to get it you are a fucking moron (unless you are not eligible for it). If people are making a conscious decision to not get it based on bullshit faux-science and conspiracy theories, then unfortunately there has to bribery, for everyone elses sake. 

    As you said, not everyone has to make the same choices, but when it affects other people I draw the line. Being vaccinated isn't a purely selfish choice to protect the individual, vaccination is a collective effort. 

    Might be a bad analogy here, but I don't care if people want to drink drive (because they think they're safe to do it) as long as they only kill themselves when they crash. But when they plough into another car and hurt others who weren't consenting to be a part of the drink driving, that's when the line must be drawn. 
    Man, that is so dumb.

    First of all, you're making an assumption that if someone doesn't get vaccinated, that this automatically affects other people.... it doesn't. There is no automatic assumption that one person not being vaccinated caused another person to catch the virus. Viruses aren't that simple. It's not a 1:1 mapping. It depends on a whole host of factors as to whether someone catches it in the first place, and if they do, how severe their symptoms are.

    Let's say obesity is a critical factor (which it is) - why should one person have to surrender their bodily autonomy against their will just because some fat cunt can't put the pork pies down?? Yes. I said it.

    Secondly, there are some legitimate reasons for people not getting vaccinations - even manufacturers say anyone who is allergic to the ingredients in the vaccine shouldn't get it. So do those people get their access to social institutions removed now? How long for? Do they have to be removed from their family and put into a safe-zone until they agree to the vaccine?

    What about certain religious sects, do we suddenly infringe upon all of their religious rights? As an individual myself, I don't give a shit about that. Fuck religion.... but guess what.... I'm able to accept that people with different perspectives to me deserve to have their wishes respected. Who would've thunkit!!

    What about people who suffer from anaphylaxis? Fuck them too?

    What about people with undiagnosed conditions like Gullian-Barre syndrome?

    What about people who have had Bell's Palsy? Do they get to weigh up the risks for themselves, or fuck them too??


    I don't think you've really thought about this much other than "hurrr durrrr vaccines good hurrr durrrr antivaxxers baaaaaaa baaaaaaa baaaaaaaaa ... can't quite finish the word.... baaaaaaa baaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaa"



    I for one intend to get it. I don't intend to make others feel bad for not getting it, and I don't intend to encourage authoritarianism just to feel a bit safer. Fuck. That.

    Bye!

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  • Nick13Nick13 Frets: 678
    edited March 25
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    PudWud said:
    PudWud said:
    Stevepage said:
    No, ridiculous fucking idea. Getting rather fed up with people happily bending over and taking it up the wrong’n without question. 
    In what way would people be bending over and taking it up the wrong'n?
    Are you in favour of painting stars on all the non-vaccinated people's houses???? It literally is the direction this kind of encroachment goes in. We've seen it before, and you and your ilk are doing your damnedest to make sure we see it again.

    Fuck me... 
    Being Jewish (in your example) isn't a choice.
    Not being vaccinated is. 
    People can choose to be Jewish. They can marry into the faith, they can convert, etc.

    But it's really irrelevant to my entire point.

    The point is - when you ostracize people from society because of XYZ, you create bad shit.

    If you want to encourage people to get vaccinations, then you make a case for it. You don't bribe them into it, you don't authority them into it, and you certainly don't achieve it by making them social pariahs.

    Can't fucking believe I have to explain this. It's literally the entire story of history and we've still not fucking learned a thing.
    I’ve had to explain this so many times I’m just tired of it now. Slap “it’s for your safety “ or “because PANDEMIC” and you could get away with pretty fucking much anything
    Except the vaccine is for your (and others) safety... If you don't understand that then you can't be helped.
    3 years ago I doubt you'd have been advocating this sort of thing.

    Yes there has been a pandemic but the concept of freedom and human rights have not changed
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 9902
    Nick13 said:
    PudWud said:
    Gandalph said:
    PudWud said:
    Nick13 said:
    Gandalph said:
    Here we go...
    Anyone who thinks this is a good idea and fancies handing out even more power to the state you need to have a serious word with yourself! 

    Exactly, I don't understand based on how the uk government conducts itself, anyone would think for a second that over time, this will not turn into something far more sinister.
    What exactly do you envisage here? You do realise that your health records are already stored on a database, and the government already has personal info on you in the way of passports, driving licenses, HMRC, national insurance, census etc. 
    Yes of course I realise that but the last time I checked I didn’t have to flash any of these to gain access to any bar, restaurant, cinema, concert, football ground, etc...
    My response was more to Nick regarding the 'something more sinister', as though simply having a document or online document stating whether or not you've been vaccinated is any different to any other health records, or other government authorised personal documentation. 

    The part about showing it to get into public places is something I'm all for, for the reasons in my other post. 

    I'm sure people will accuse me of tinfoil hatting this but....

    Fast forward 10 years, there is another "migrant crisis" fabricated by the press.

    The government: "we can fix this, all we need is to digitise the vaccine passports (which will likely already have happened)  and then enable location tracking on them so we can issue them to any migrants and know where they are, we'll also need to do it for uk residents but a small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree"

    Boom, if you exceed the speed limit you are automatically done.

    Visit a gay bar they know you are into gay bars

    Go to the bookies they know you like gambling

    Etc

    just as well we don't all carry GPS trackers already then eh? ;-)
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  • Nick13Nick13 Frets: 678
    edited March 25

    Nick13 said:
    PudWud said:
    Gandalph said:
    PudWud said:
    Nick13 said:
    Gandalph said:
    Here we go...
    Anyone who thinks this is a good idea and fancies handing out even more power to the state you need to have a serious word with yourself! 

    Exactly, I don't understand based on how the uk government conducts itself, anyone would think for a second that over time, this will not turn into something far more sinister.
    What exactly do you envisage here? You do realise that your health records are already stored on a database, and the government already has personal info on you in the way of passports, driving licenses, HMRC, national insurance, census etc. 
    Yes of course I realise that but the last time I checked I didn’t have to flash any of these to gain access to any bar, restaurant, cinema, concert, football ground, etc...
    My response was more to Nick regarding the 'something more sinister', as though simply having a document or online document stating whether or not you've been vaccinated is any different to any other health records, or other government authorised personal documentation. 

    The part about showing it to get into public places is something I'm all for, for the reasons in my other post. 

    I'm sure people will accuse me of tinfoil hatting this but....

    Fast forward 10 years, there is another "migrant crisis" fabricated by the press.

    The government: "we can fix this, all we need is to digitise the vaccine passports (which will likely already have happened)  and then enable location tracking on them so we can issue them to any migrants and know where they are, we'll also need to do it for uk residents but a small price to pay I'm sure you'll agree"

    Boom, if you exceed the speed limit you are automatically done.

    Visit a gay bar they know you are into gay bars

    Go to the bookies they know you like gambling

    Etc

    just as well we don't all carry GPS trackers already then eh? ;-)

    Which we have by choice and can configure...
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 9902
    I can see the need to require vaccination for certain job roles

    Also, it's nothing new for international travel

    Sounds like a bad idea for normal life stuff, what would it achieve?
    I can see the use for it to persuade anti-vaxxers in countries where no one wants the vaccine, but so far we are getting very high take up of vaccine offers in the UK
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