Legalising Cannabis

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  • Sassafras said:
    No-one's mentioned Tobacco.
    One of the most dangerous drugs available in shops.
    Can't see much excuse for banning other drugs while tobacco is legal.
    That's a good point really.

    When I was 11, when used to hang around the local shops asking parents to buy us fags. And a lot of them DID!!! That blows my mind now!

    What's it gonna be like if the shops are stocking all sorts of additionals?

    Bye!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960

    What's it gonna be like if the shops are stocking all sorts of additionals?
    It would probably be better with specialist drug shops, like off-licences rather than having them sold in every corner shop.

    It’s also true that with taxation comes the opportunity for criminals to undercut the legal market, just as they do with alcohol and tobacco, but it’s nowhere near as profitable. *Nothing* is as profitable to criminals as the current model for drugs, or even remotely close. Taking it away would destroy organised crime almost completely and remove the vast majority of the low-level crime which pays for it at the user end. And illegal production couldn’t compete with properly legal supply either - once big legitimate companies get involved the economies of scale would be huge.

    It’s not because I’m a free-market libertarian or a drug user that I think this way, it’s because I can see what the prohibition approach has resulted in, and that going on doing the same thing and expecting different results is more or less the definition of insanity.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • TheMarlinTheMarlin Frets: 7745
    It’s not for me, can’t bear the stuff.  But, I feel it should be legalised, and money directed away from organised crime, and put towards hospitals, and communities. 

    I know there is at least one company near Oxford that has a licence to legally grow it.  
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    ICBM said:

    What's it gonna be like if the shops are stocking all sorts of additionals?
    It would probably be better with specialist drug shops, like off-licences rather than having them sold in every corner shop.

    It’s also true that with taxation comes the opportunity for criminals to undercut the legal market, just as they do with alcohol and tobacco, but it’s nowhere near as profitable. *Nothing* is as profitable to criminals as the current model for drugs, or even remotely close. Taking it away would destroy organised crime almost completely and remove the vast majority of the low-level crime which pays for it at the user end. And illegal production couldn’t compete with properly legal supply either - once big legitimate companies get involved the economies of scale would be huge.

    It’s not because I’m a free-market libertarian or a drug user that I think this way, it’s because I can see what the prohibition approach has resulted in, and that going on doing the same thing and expecting different results is more or less the definition of insanity.
    But we have yet to see a version of legalisation that actually works; that does all the things that people wanting the legalised sale of cannabis say it will achieve. 
    I don’t think there has been much testing of a heavily deregulated market akin to putting cannabis next to the apples and bananas in Tesco but this is a drug so we would expect some regulation and I suspect that’s not up for debate in our life times. The regulated models work well if you want to pop into Boots on the way home from the office rather than Wine Warehouse but hardly touch the overall issue. 
    Several countries are going down the decriminalisation of personal possession, we’ve mentioned Portugal plus Canberra and the Dutch model of partial decriminalisation. Maybe more. These also don’t stop cannabis as part of wider criminal activity but it stops putting very minor offenders into the criminal system. If these are supported by treatment services there is evidence of positive outcomes. My sense of it is this is a better way forward. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • ICBM said:

    What's it gonna be like if the shops are stocking all sorts of additionals?
    It would probably be better with specialist drug shops, like off-licences rather than having them sold in every corner shop.

    It’s also true that with taxation comes the opportunity for criminals to undercut the legal market, just as they do with alcohol and tobacco, but it’s nowhere near as profitable. *Nothing* is as profitable to criminals as the current model for drugs, or even remotely close. Taking it away would destroy organised crime almost completely and remove the vast majority of the low-level crime which pays for it at the user end. And illegal production couldn’t compete with properly legal supply either - once big legitimate companies get involved the economies of scale would be huge.

    It’s not because I’m a free-market libertarian or a drug user that I think this way, it’s because I can see what the prohibition approach has resulted in, and that going on doing the same thing and expecting different results is more or less the definition of insanity.
    I see zero evidence for the claim that it would destroy organised crime almost completely, and decriminalizing low-level crime is not the same thing as that crime disappearing; I see no evidence that the actual incidencies of crime would reduce; just that our ability to detect and monitor and enforce against it would reduce.

    Just because prohibition has issues - and it does, it does - doesn't mean we should resort to a blanket all drugs are now legal and purchaseable rulebook. That's why I called it utopianism, because I truly don't think you've thought this through. The reason I said you're more free market capitalist on this issue than I am, is because not once have you talked about the potential dangers of your solution. You've only espoused the imagined and unproven benefits.

    It's completely untested waters. To make grand claims about the efficacy of XYZ approach when it hasn't been tested is a classic example of utopian thinking.

    Whereas I'm at least encorporating something of human nature into my viewpoint - some humans want to get fucked up. Whether that's because of escapism or not is neither here nor there (and for the record, I'm not convinced by that argument either!) the bottom line is... humans are going to do what they want to do; and the role of government is to ensure that a minimal amount of harm is perpetrated upon it's people as possible.

    Some humans can handle their drink and drugs, and some cannot. Some turn peaceful and chilled out when mashed off their face, and some do not. It's anecdotal, but I used to know a guy that would cause fights any time he got super high. I know one guy who jumped out of a window on cocaine and broke his leg. I remember a friend at uni fantasizing about jumping out of a window when she was high on shrooms; she's lucky we all laughed at her instead of going "woaah dude... deepppp... let's do it!"

    RE: Off-licenses not being the same as corner shops .... well.... I don't know what it's like where you live... but where I live you generally have one of two things - a Tescos/Morrisons/Sainsbury's supermarket.... or an off license that also happens to sell bread and milk and Polish cupcakes.



    On the profits thing ... what do drug cartels and their organisations do when they lose money? They look for something else. They go off and invent the next designer drug to maximize profits, and the legal and social framework doesn't move quick enough to keep up. It's not prohibition that gave us spice, pcp, meth, and bath salts. It's human's propensity to try and fuck themselves up, and drug dealers propensity to push and capitalize on human suffering and weakness.



    I'm sounding like a just say no advocate, and maybe on some level I am. The point someone else made about escapism... okay.... let's roll with that for a moment..... why do people have to be so weak? Why can't they face their challenges head on? Why do they need to blot out all of the pain? Why escape? Why not get some help? Are they thick? Is it IQ? Are they actively malicious? Do they want to hurt themselves and others around them? Does misery love company?

    There are lots of branches to this tree and you could really go deep on this topic. Deeper than "legalise it all lol" really takes you.

    One thing I'm reasonably sure of; we're not going to get rid of drug dealers by making all drugs legal. It doesn't work that way. Never has, and never will. 

    Bye!

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  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3852
    Although I agree with many of the arguments for legalising it, the problem I see with it is, it's passive. I know we can't smoke inside anymore but I went to a gig many moons ago and was high as a bloody kite as everyone around me was on it. 
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 3822
    edited April 2021
    I don't see how something like heroin could be legal. There's very few people can afford an £80 a day habit without committing some sort of crime. 
    Does the government give addicts free smack like methadone? (this can actually happen now just not very common) 


    I agree with the decriminalisation though.
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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    ICBM said:
    In my opinion all drugs should be fully legal, regulated and taxed just like alcohol and tobacco are. It would destroy organised crime overnight, largely eliminate property crime and prostitution, save billions in policing, and generate billions in taxation.

    I am well aware that there are severe health issues with drug use, but in fact many of them are due to the lack of regulation and purity/strength standards. I don’t see any evidence that it would dramatically increase use since anyone who wants illegal drugs can already get them.

    If the US experiment with prohibition of alcohol wasn’t an effective enough lesson then the abject failure of drug prohibition should have reinforced it more than sufficiently.
    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    I don't see how criminality can be stopped.
    It's mostly a life choice.
    When I was a heroin addict, I consorted with criminals, people who were highly unlikely to choose a wholesome, honest lifestyle if drugs were legalised. They'd just move on to the next criminal endeavour.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960

    I don't see how something like heroin could be legal. There's very few people can afford an £80 a day habit without committing some sort of crime.

    I agree with the decriminalisation though.
    Decriminalisation isn’t the solution. It needs to be full legalisation so legitimate suppliers can replace criminals. Heroin would be nowhere near that expensive if legal - it’s actually quite cheap to produce. The price is driven by the illegality.

    From a criminal point of view you couldn’t invent a better business if you tried - it has extremely high value-to-bulk ratio, insatiable demand that’s largely unaffected by price, and no legal competition.

    Of course organised criminals would try to find another opportunity - but there isn’t one that even comes close to what they can generate from drugs, and without the overpricing at the user level there would be far less low-level crime to pay for it as well.

    It’s not utopian or libertarian, it’s simple logic. Prohibition has utterly failed, and will always fail because by the very nature of it, the more effective you try to make it the greater the incentives and rewards for the criminals.

    If you honestly think the solution is more of the same then you’re simply irrational.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 4896
    The legalities of going out, driving, operating machinery, professionalism in the workplace, carers, riding scooters on the pavement, etc. needs to be sorted for it to be legalised.

    There's also the question of where the boundary lies between valid/sensible use and addiction.

    I think that most of it is covered by alcohol use anyway, but intoxication testing and suchlike would need to be sorted.

    Personally, I don't like it, but I have no objection to others using it for recreational or medical purposes; also, legalising it could break the link with harder drugs.

    The worst thing for me would be for it to bring back a trend towards smoking, just as we've almost got rid of the smellies.
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  • ICBM said:
    it’s simple logic.
    Yeah, that's the problem. :trollface: 

    Bye!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    proggy said:

    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
    Because the vast majority of it is driven by the need to pay for illegal drugs.

    I did say ‘largely’ as well. Of course it wouldn’t completely, and nor would it completely remove low-level property crime, but it would drastically reduce both, and be easier to police.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    ICBM said:
    proggy said:

    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
    Because the vast majority of it is driven by the need to pay for illegal drugs.

    I did say ‘largely’ as well. Of course it wouldn’t completely, and nor would it completely remove low-level property crime, but it would drastically reduce both, and be easier to police.

    ICBM said:
    proggy said:

    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
    Because the vast majority of it is driven by the need to pay for illegal drugs.

    I did say ‘largely’ as well. Of course it wouldn’t completely, and nor would it completely remove low-level property crime, but it would drastically reduce both, and be easier to police.

    I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    proggy said:

    I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!
    Why not?

    That's actually a serious question. If it was available free, on prescription, to users then you would eliminate all the problems of the current way it's supplied and reduce it to simply managing the health problems of the drug itself, which we already have anyway now.

    Look at it rationally. Prohibition doesn't work, it only causes more harm - there's a century of evidence that conclusively proves that. Perhaps it's time to think about how to minimise the harm, rather than keep on banging our heads against the same wall and expecting it to stop hurting.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • zepp76zepp76 Frets: 2534
    proggy said:
    ICBM said:
    proggy said:

    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
    Because the vast majority of it is driven by the need to pay for illegal drugs.

    I did say ‘largely’ as well. Of course it wouldn’t completely, and nor would it completely remove low-level property crime, but it would drastically reduce both, and be easier to police.

    ICBM said:
    proggy said:

    How would legalising all drugs eliminate prostitution?
    Because the vast majority of it is driven by the need to pay for illegal drugs.

    I did say ‘largely’ as well. Of course it wouldn’t completely, and nor would it completely remove low-level property crime, but it would drastically reduce both, and be easier to police.

    I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!

    Prostitution was first recorded as an "occupation" around 2400 BC, turning to it hasn't been solely for the benefit of buying drugs. Being an "escort" is an easy way for some people to live a very nice lifestyle whether male or female.
    Tomorrow will be a good day.
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  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3852
    Strictly for those who are very much 'for' legalising, would you restrict where it could be used? i.e. workplaces? Pub beer gardens? Cars? Back gardens? I see a problem (all passive that would have repercussions for bystanders) for it being allowed in any/all of those.
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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    I agree you have a point and I appreciate that, but by making life threatening, dangerous drugs easily available to everyone doesn't seem to be the answer to the problem in my opinion. These drugs kill people and destroy families. I've seen it happen.
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 3822
    ICBM said:
    proggy said:

    I understand there's a percentage of drug users turning to prostitution to feed their habit, but whether the drugs are legal or not they would still need money to buy them. You couldn't just make crack cocaine legal and give it away for free!
    Why not?

    That's actually a serious question. If it was available free, on prescription, to users then you would eliminate all the problems of the current way it's supplied and reduce it to simply managing the health problems of the drug itself, which we already have anyway now.

    Look at it rationally. Prohibition doesn't work, it only causes more harm - there's a century of evidence that conclusively proves that. Perhaps it's time to think about how to minimise the harm, rather than keep on banging our heads against the same wall and expecting it to stop hurting.


    I think it would need to be something like that and that's going to be difficult. A lot of people wouldn't agree with giving addicts free drugs. It would be complicated. Obviously for whatever reasons methadone is generally the drug of choice for maintenance treatment. 

    It's interesting and I definitely don't know what the answers are. 


    I believe that during alcohol prohibition in America alcohol related illness was greatly reduced. I may have heard that on QI or something though so don't know how true it is. Would be interesting to hear the facts.  :3
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 3822
    proggy said:
    I agree you have a point and I appreciate that, but by making life threatening, dangerous drugs easily available to everyone doesn't seem to be the answer to the problem in my opinion. These drugs kill people and destroy families. I've seen it happen.

    I think that's the problem most heroin users aren't functioning members of society. It's different to alcohol and cannabis. 
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