Covid vaccinations for children

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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    chris78 said:
    Cols said:
    peanuts said:
    Average age of death 82.3 years  - slightly higher than average age of death from anything - why are you vaccinating your children ?
    Why are so many babies dying of Covid-19 in Brazil? 

    Infant mortality in Brazil is around 4 1/2 times higher than in the UK.

    You might find this interesting though for some balance:

     https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext

    Covid represents around 0.48% of child deaths from all causes.
    It’s well-known that children are at lower risk from COVID than older people.  The reason for my comment was the rather fatuous question “Why are you vaccinating your children”, insinuating that COVID is risk-free to kids.  It’s not.

    Furthermore, it’s not just a Brazil issue.  It’s worldwide.  In the UK, for example, up to 100 children per week are being hospitalised with the same pattern; a massive increase in inflammatory markers leading to hyperinflammatory shock, organ failure and - in some cases - death.  The progression from infection to developing this syndrome and subsequent hospitalisation is well-established.  For the survivors, the long term consequences are not yet known.

    All of that is a very long way of answering the question “ why are you vaccinating your children ?” with “because infection in children can cause serious illness, organ failure and death”.
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 5196
    Cols said:

    It’s well-known that children are at lower risk from COVID than older people.  The reason for my comment was the rather fatuous question “Why are you vaccinating your children”, insinuating that COVID is risk-free to kids.  It’s not.

    Furthermore, it’s not just a Brazil issue.  It’s worldwide.  In the UK, for example, up to 100 children per week are being hospitalised with the same pattern; a massive increase in inflammatory markers leading to hyperinflammatory shock, organ failure and - in some cases - death.  The progression from infection to developing this syndrome and subsequent hospitalisation is well-established.  For the survivors, the long term consequences are not yet known.

    All of that is a very long way of answering the question “ why are you vaccinating your children ?” with “because infection in children can cause serious illness, organ failure and death”.
    Having a discussion about risk is pointless and fatuous? I wish I saw the world in such definites and black and white as you appear to. The world would be a very simple place. I’m surprised you don’t understand grey given you occasionally come across as quite intelligent?

    Allow me to address your comment that “up to 100 children per week are being hospitalised due to COVID.” At the absolute peak, that was true. Now, we’re averaging about 3-7 a day. I haven’t seen stats to show whether those children have severe underlying health or respiratory conditions. I believe I’ve read that the majority of children ill do, but I don’t have a source. So, that might suggest that there is an argument to vaccinate children with underlying conditions but not healthy ones? We also need to understand what hospitalisation means. It can mean anything from a trip to hospital with immediate discharge to full intensive care. We don’t have a breakdown that I can see for what child required what treatment. If all 100 were panicky parents that changes the risk? If all 100 needed intensive care, that would skew risk the other way?

    Deaths among up to and including age 19 involving COVID is at my count 17 according to ons in 2021. 3 males. Again, no data on underlying conditions that I’m aware of. That could mean though that we might consider it more relevant to vaccinate girls than men?

    Now, if you dig deeper into the ONS stats, they measure any respiratory disease, flu and pneumonia but don’t break it down by age group. We know again from those stats that while COVID may have been a contributory factor, the primary cause of death in many cases isn’t COVID. In fact it’s over half the recorded cases on ONS. Take flu though as an example. We don’t routinely vaccinate kids for flu. If flu was the primary cause of some of these deaths, why aren’t we if we’re talking about vaccinating kids for COVID?

    So fatuous? Actually I’m just trying to understand risk so as a parent I can ascertain that if the government approve vaccines for children. Not doing so would be a gross negligence in my duty as a parent to my children.
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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    To address some of your points:

    I haven’t seen stats to show whether those children have severe underlying health or respiratory conditions. 

    I have.  Four out of five children admitted with this had no underlying health conditions.

    We also need to understand what hospitalisation means.

    It means the child has been assessed by a doctor who has concluded that their condition is sufficiently serious to warrant hospitalisation.

    We don’t have a breakdown that I can see for what child required what treatment.

    71·0% of children presenting with COVID-induced multisystem inflammatory syndrome were admitted to intensive care. 

    Take flu though as an example. We don’t routinely vaccinate kids for flu. If flu was the primary cause of some of these deaths, why aren’t we if we’re talking about vaccinating kids for COVID?

    Yes we do.  You can read about it here.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/child-flu-vaccine/

    I’m just trying to understand risk so as a parent I can ascertain that if the government approve vaccines for children. 

    That’s one of the purposes of the clinical trials; to evaluate safety of the vaccine, identify any side-effects or contraindications and to compare the benefit of the vaccine with any risks identified.

    Part of that is an understanding of what risks posed by infection are being prevented by vaccination.  Fortunately children are unlikely to suffer serious effects from COVID.  Unfortunately they can suffer serious illness and death, so a preventable risk exists.  And hopefully a vaccine can prevent this, while being completely safe.  

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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    I was reminded of this short letter written by Roald Dahl in 1988.  It concerns the importance of measles vaccination, but I feel the message is equally valid for this discussion.

    Measles: a dangerous illness
    Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn't do anything. 

    "Are you feeling all right?" I asked her. 

    "I feel all sleepy," she said. 

    In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead. 

    The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her. 

    On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it. 

    It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk. In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out. 

    Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die. 

    LET THAT SINK IN. 

    Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles. 

    So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised? 

    They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation. 

    So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised. 

    The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible. 

    Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was 'James and the Giant Peach'. That was when she was still alive. The second was 'The BFG', dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children.

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  • Fucksake. I really don't need to be reading that shit at 11pm at night. I'm a twat for even popping my head in here.

    Bye!

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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 5196
    Cols said:
    To address some of your points:

    I haven’t seen stats to show whether those children have severe underlying health or respiratory conditions. 

    I have.  Four out of five children admitted with this had no underlying health conditions.

    We also need to understand what hospitalisation means.

    It means the child has been assessed by a doctor who has concluded that their condition is sufficiently serious to warrant hospitalisation.

    We don’t have a breakdown that I can see for what child required what treatment.

    71·0% of children presenting with COVID-induced multisystem inflammatory syndrome were admitted to intensive care. 

    Take flu though as an example. We don’t routinely vaccinate kids for flu. If flu was the primary cause of some of these deaths, why aren’t we if we’re talking about vaccinating kids for COVID?

    Yes we do.  You can read about it here.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/child-flu-vaccine/

    I’m just trying to understand risk so as a parent I can ascertain that if the government approve vaccines for children. 

    That’s one of the purposes of the clinical trials; to evaluate safety of the vaccine, identify any side-effects or contraindications and to compare the benefit of the vaccine with any risks identified.

    Part of that is an understanding of what risks posed by infection are being prevented by vaccination.  Fortunately children are unlikely to suffer serious effects from COVID.  Unfortunately they can suffer serious illness and death, so a preventable risk exists.  And hopefully a vaccine can prevent this, while being completely safe.  

    Now that’s why I started the thread. Stats are useful- thank you.
    I wonder why the government are telling us that and are instead saying there’s no risk but don’t kill Granny, even though Granny has been vaccinated?
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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 2024
    Vaccinating all children for this (and flu) is utterly unnecessary, paranoid meddling and could lead to worse/unforeseen problems down the road.  I can’t believe we live in a world now where this is seen as a rational thing to do.  It’s bordering on the obscene imo.

    https://wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk/coronavirus/how-have-covid-19-fatalities-compared-other-causes-death/

    @Cols no vaccines are “completely safe”.  

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 6670
    This is, I accept, totally anecdotal, but p'raps relevant to this discussion.

    Last March, when I had (almost definite) Covid along with about half the group I was staying with in Scotland, we think it was a 3 year old that most likely infected us.

    The timeline was that the Dad went to a conference in Seattle in the last week of Feb, came back and was ill through the first week of march with mostly gastro symptoms, but also a total change in his sense of taste. Then the mum was also ill, but both were feeling well enough to go on holiday with us by mid March.

    During the week we were together, their 3 year old daughter developed a cough, high temp, and was sick one night. This is of course after doing what all toddlers do - giving everyone in the group hugs and kisses, or in the case of my lucky mate, ramming her dirty fingers into his mouth with no warning.

    Ultimately 6 - half the group, were ill. My sense of taste & smell didn't return for weeks, and honestly certain smells have permanently changed. In the summer one of the guys who was ill participated in a clinical trial & had Covid Antibodies.

    There are several uncertainties in my experience, but applying Occam's razor, if kid is ill enough to show symptoms and coughs in your face, I'd say they might give you covid 19.

    We're all mid 30s anyway, we survived. I would note that obesity, health, lifestyle etc seemed to play no part at all in which 6 of the dozen of us fell ill, or how long it took us to recover.

    My feeling is the discussion of Covid and children has been too politically charged to get a reasonable balanced perspective. There's been pressure throughout society to re-open schools, and in September a lot of discussion seemed to imply that kids just didn't get or spread covid in enough numbers to worry about, as part of the justification for re-opening. Now, I totally understand the need to get kids back into formal education, so there's no easy answer and I'm not saying the wrong choice was made. But I do think that the actual risks have been both obfuscated and simply not understood.
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  • peanutspeanuts Frets: 112
    Cols said:
    chris78 said:
    Cols said:
    peanuts said:
    Average age of death 82.3 years  - slightly higher than average age of death from anything - why are you vaccinating your children ?
    Why are so many babies dying of Covid-19 in Brazil? 

    Infant mortality in Brazil is around 4 1/2 times higher than in the UK.

    You might find this interesting though for some balance:

     https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext

    Covid represents around 0.48% of child deaths from all causes.
    It’s well-known that children are at lower risk from COVID than older people.  The reason for my comment was the rather fatuous question “Why are you vaccinating your children”, insinuating that COVID is risk-free to kids.  It’s not.

    Many questions that would appear entirely reasonable & relevant in the current context - as opposed to ‘pointless & silly’ - seem to be imbued with highly charged open hostility hereabouts - remarkable how straightforward contextual questions should be so richly reviled . . the sheer audacity of asking questions

     “.. insinuating that COVID is risk-free to kids.”  

    No.

    That would be erroneous presumption falsely attributed to a third party . . again 

    Cols said:

    . . it’s not just a Brazil issue.  It’s worldwide.  In the UK, for example, up to 100 children per week are being hospitalised with the same pattern; a massive increase in inflammatory markers leading to hyperinflammatory shock, organ failure and - in some cases - death.  The progression from infection to developing this syndrome and subsequent hospitalisation is well-established.  For the survivors, the long term consequences are not yet known.
    If it’s happening in Brazil, it reasonably follows that it is happening “worldwide”, which leads to the question ‘Why then is Brazil being held up as a cause célèbre?’ .

    The issue in the UK does appear very serious indeed according to your report, with “ up to 100 children per week hospitalised with the same pattern . .  and death ” . Do we have government statistics to support this with the total number of UK babies being hospitalised & having died in this way directly attributable to Covid since early 2020? 

    Cols said:

    All of that is a very long way of answering the question “ why are you vaccinating your children ?” with “because infection in children can cause serious illness, organ failure and death”.
    Unfortunately children, like adults, are vulnerable to many causes of “ . serious illness, organ failure and death “  

    Do we now live in a world where that is sufficient enough reason alone to vaccinate every single one of them for anything & everything we can find a vaccine to inject them with ?

    p.s. it’s a question 
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  • AdeyAdey Frets: 1176
    My answer is "I don't really care anymore"
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  • peanutspeanuts Frets: 112
    Adey said:
    My answer is "I don't really care anymore"
    you are in large & growing company 
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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    peanuts said:

    Cols said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-56696907

    It’s not just a Brazil issue.  It’s worldwide.  In the UK, for example, up to 100 children per week are being hospitalised with the same pattern; a massive increase in inflammatory markers leading to hyperinflammatory shock, organ failure and - in some cases - death.  The progression from infection to developing this syndrome and subsequent hospitalisation is well-established.  For the survivors, the long term consequences are not yet known.
    If it’s happening in Brazil, it reasonably follows that it is happening “worldwide”, which leads to the question ‘Why then is Brazil being held up as a cause célèbre?’ .
    It’s only a wild guess on my part, but I reckon it might be because the principal journalist who wrote it is based in Sao Paulo and works for BBC Brazil.

    It would be difficult for her to interview, for example, staff treating children in intensive care wards in Germany.  For that you’d need Der Speigel. 

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/doctors-warn-of-illness-in-children-triggered-by-covid-19-a-73481e22-c238-4daa-8908-5aa8b9c35b40

    Or for India, you might try The Times of India.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/covid-trail-packs-pims-punch-for-children-city-docs-report/articleshow/79769125.cms

    Or if you were looking for a more dispassionate analysis of how it’s affecting American children, you might try asking the CDC.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2778429?guestAccessKey=145e1ae6-2d09-4378-897a-90dc868ec13e&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=040621

    I could go on.

    The issue in the UK does appear very serious indeed according to your report, with “ up to 100 children per week hospitalised with the same pattern . .  and death ” . Do we have government statistics to support this with the total number of UK babies being hospitalised & having died in this way directly attributable to Covid since early 2020? 
    Yes we do.  Sadly, every doctor standing over the still body of a child who was in their care has to fill out a medical certificate for the cause of death.  This includes contributing or underlying causes.  This information is passed on to the Office for National Statistics. 
    Unfortunately children, like adults, are vulnerable to many causes of “ . serious illness, organ failure and death “  

    Do we now live in a world where that is sufficient enough reason alone to vaccinate every single one of them for anything & everything we can find a vaccine to inject them with ?

    Absolutely.  If a disease can cause death, serious illness or permanent damage to a child, and a good and safe vaccine is available which can prevent this, I cannot imagine why you wouldn’t.

    No parent should have to bury their child.
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  • peanutspeanuts Frets: 112
    edited April 22
    Cols said:

    It’s only a wild guess on my part, but I reckon it might be because the principal journalist who wrote it is based in Sao Paulo and works for BBC Brazil.

    It would be difficult for her to interview, for example, staff treating children in intensive care wards in Germany.  For that you’d need Der Speigel. 

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/doctors-warn-of-illness-in-children-triggered-by-covid-19-a-73481e22-c238-4daa-8908-5aa8b9c35b40

    Or for India, you might try The Times of India.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/covid-trail-packs-pims-punch-for-children-city-docs-report/articleshow/79769125.cms

    Or if you were looking for a more dispassionate analysis of how it’s affecting American children, you might try asking the CDC.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2778429?guestAccessKey=145e1ae6-2d09-4378-897a-90dc868ec13e&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=040621

    I could go on.

    The issue in the UK does appear very serious indeed according to your report, with “ up to 100 children per week hospitalised with the same pattern . .  and death ” . Do we have government statistics to support this with the total number of UK babies being hospitalised & having died in this way directly attributable to Covid since early 2020? 
    Yes we do.  Sadly, every doctor standing over the still body of a child who was in their care has to fill out a medical certificate for the cause of death.  This includes contributing or underlying causes.  This information is passed on to the Office for National Statistics. 
    Unfortunately children, like adults, are vulnerable to many causes of “ . serious illness, organ failure and death “  

    Do we now live in a world where that is sufficient enough reason alone to vaccinate every single one of them for anything & everything we can find a vaccine to inject them with ?

    Absolutely.  If a disease can cause death, serious illness or permanent damage to a child, and a good and safe vaccine is available which can prevent this, I cannot imagine why you wouldn’t.

    No parent should have to bury their child.
    highly charged emotive (and perhaps if one is being critical, somewhat exploitative) language again @Cols  - something I imagine nearly everyone is all too familiar with and in many cases well weary of by now - but notably you neglected to provide the one piece of UK GOVT data actually requested in favour of emotive dramatisation instead . .

    If, as you stated, the reported situation is “worldwide” and “In the UK . .” the point of using Brazil as a cause célèbre to address the same situation in UK appears to be unnecessary. The requested UK ONS data on this very specific topic would happily settle the query wouldn’t you agree ?

    As for Brazil, India and elsewhere, I don’t doubt other countries have very idiosyncratic experiences pertaining to their own very 
    specific circumstances (having traveled extensively in South America, India & Nepal for instance, enhanced vulnerability within certain demographics in such locations is hardly surprising) . UK itself is a very relevant case in point when compared to say Taiwan and its grand total of 11 Covid related deaths just for an example
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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    Seriously, I’ve provided more than enough direction for you to go and look it up for yourself.

    I’m a guitarist, not your research bitch.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 6670
    Can't you just be more like a Peanut and not get sentimental and emotional about dying children? Honestly, you humans are the WORST
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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    Cirrus said:
    Can't you just be more like a Peanut and not get sentimental and emotional about dying children? Honestly, you humans are the WORST
    I know, I know.  I should just stick to dry statistics so it can be arbitrarily decided that the numbers aren’t terribly significant.  
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  • peanutspeanuts Frets: 112
    edited April 28
    Cols said:
    Seriously, I’ve provided more than enough direction for you to go and look it up for yourself.

    I’m a guitarist, not your research bitch.
    “a guitarist” mocking/patronising entirely appropriate / relevant requests for substantiation of sensationalistic statements. .

    . . exploitative dramatisation rules the day & to hell with supporting scientific data . .

    Recurring refusal to furnish exploitative statements with relevant, requested supporting data inevitably qualifies as ‘Fail’, Disqualification & ‘Do not pass Go’  - if you’re going to play . .
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  • The background infant mortality rate in Brazil is 4 times higher than the UK.

    That's definitely not relevant though.

    Bye!

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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    Not just Brazil, Drew.
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  • ColsCols Frets: 3990
    Contingency plans are being drawn up to offer the Pfizer vaccine to children of 12 years and over from September.  In clinical trials, the Pfizer vaccine is so far showing 100% efficacy for children.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/secondary-school-covid-vaccines-september-b1840884.html
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