10 inch speaker for tweed champ

slowpilgrim

Hi all,

Thinking about cloning this beauty with a modulus kit:

https://guitarplace.de/en/electric-guitars/fender/custom-shop-teambuilt/10820/fender-custom-shop-telecaster-1959-champ-1x10-journeyman-relic-aged-black

I saw it has a 10 inch greenback fitted. As someone who owns an 8 inch vibro champ (bigger cab than tweed) which can sound a little boxy, what could I expect from a) 10 inch speaker, in a smaller tweed cab and b) a greenback fitted instead of the usual 8 inch alnico?

They seem like some interesting design decisions and obviously the custom shop thought it sounded good! I love the small form of the tweed champ but would welcome a bigger sound.

Thanks!

ICBM

I can't be specific about that amp since there are quite a few differences, but I once owned a '59 5F1 tweed Champ and a '58 5F2 Princeton that had been fitted with a 10" speaker - I think it was an old CTS. Now, the Princeton cabinet is bigger to begin with, and this one had been stripped to the pine - and the amp also has a tone control... so you wouldn't expect them to sound quite the same anyway.

But - the Princeton sounded *far* better - really a lot bigger, clearer, fuller, more dynamic, just more of everything really. (Other than raspy midrange!)

That said a Celestion would not be my first choice, even though I like the G10 Greenback. Fender seem to have a real thing these days for trying to make their amps sound like half-baked Marshalls - not sure why. In my opinion they sound much better with 'American voiced' speakers.

I also think the amp probably has a different OT, since the original 5F1 is a 3.2-ohm output, and the Greenback is only available in 8 or 16-ohm, unless Celestion have made special ones for Fender. For what it's worth the 5F2 Princeton is also an 8-ohm output as stock - why different from the Champ, I'm not sure since they were both 5W amps with 8" speakers originally.

slowpilgrim

Cheers for that, I’ve just read that the cabs on these were a little bit bigger and they had custom speakers fitted, but yeah halfway to a Princeton basically. I will look at doing a 5W Princeton build instead with a 10” speaker.

slowpilgrim

Modulus does a Princeton cab that is larger even though it says it’s for an 8” speaker. 10”/12” will easily fit in there.

sw67

I have a rift tweed 5f1 with a 10 inch warehouse speaker. I don’t have anything for direct comparison but it sounds great to me. The fender custom shop champ also came with a 10 inch speaker. Thats what made me go with bigger speaker - its also 8 ohm. 

slowpilgrim

Yeah colour me convinced! Going to build the Modulus 5f2a kit with the 10 inch cab, with ebony/black varnish like that custom shop one I linked. Looks great to me. Now to figure out how to add an attenuator.

poopot

Add a vvr!...

R1 = 10ohm 5watt
R2 And R3 = 100kOhm 0.5watt
D1 = 12.1v 1watt zener
mosfet = either 2SK2968 or NTE2973
pot = 1meg lin

Emiel

In case you might like a more American sounding speaker, have a look at the Jensen P10R-F. Fabulous sounding speaker and not too loud. I'm using one in a Tweed Harvard housed in a larger Deluxe cabinet.

munckee

Emiel said:

In case you might like a more American sounding speaker, have a look at the Jensen P10R-F. Fabulous sounding speaker and not too loud. I'm using one in a Tweed Harvard housed in a larger Deluxe cabinet.

The princeton 65 I just bought has this speaker in, sounds terrific.

slowpilgrim

Emiel said:

In case you might like a more American sounding speaker, have a look at the Jensen P10R-F. Fabulous sounding speaker and not too loud. I'm using one in a Tweed Harvard housed in a larger Deluxe cabinet.

My Vibro Champ has a 30-year old P8R in it that I bloody love. Has the most beautiful sparkly cleans, and sounds way better than the lauded Jupiter 8SC I had before. It has a nice light compression to it that seems to just smooth everything out. Might try a Weber sig or something for this one.

slowpilgrim

poopot said:

Add a vvr!...

R1 = 10ohm 5watt
R2 And R3 = 100kOhm 0.5watt
D1 = 12.1v 1watt zener
mosfet = either 2SK2968 or NTE2973
pot = 1meg lin

Amazing, thanks! Might wire this up where the tone pot is supposed to go.

poopot

slowpilgrim said:

poopot said:

Add a vvr!...

R1 = 10ohm 5watt
R2 And R3 = 100kOhm 0.5watt
D1 = 12.1v 1watt zener
mosfet = either 2SK2968 or NTE2973
pot = 1meg lin

Amazing, thanks! Might wire this up where the tone pot is supposed to go.

Drill a hole near the tranny end and stick it there!...

or if there’s a standby switch stick it there instead of the standby!.

Zoolooter

Emiel said:

In case you might like a more American sounding speaker, have a look at the Jensen P10R-F. Fabulous sounding speaker and not too loud. I'm using one in a Tweed Harvard housed in a larger Deluxe cabinet.

I’ve been looking out for one of these secondhand. I’d really like to change the C10R that’s In there at the moment, but need something with low efficiency.  I’d be interested to know if you tried other speakers and what made the P10R-F standout. 

Fuengi

I wonder how much cabinet material matters? The Honeyboy 8" 5F1 is made from sapele and it's a long, long way from being boxy.

He used to use American White Oak but found that too.much of the supply was unusable. 

@munckee has (or had if he's sold it now) Silver face Champ is also pretty room filling. That's old dry pine I think? 

ICBM

My original very old dry pine ‘59 5F1 was really boxy. It sounded good, but only had any bass or treble at low volume - as soon as it was overdriven it basically produced one tone.

But I think I have less of a tolerance for this than some people...

Modulus_Amps

Fuengi said:

I wonder how much cabinet material matters? The Honeyboy 8" 5F1 is made from sapele and it's a long, long way from being boxy.

He used to use American White Oak but found that too.much of the supply was unusable. 

@munckee has (or had if he's sold it now) Silver face Champ is also pretty room filling. That's old dry pine I think? Bo

Boxyness is easier to hear when you have two amps/cabs side by side, it is a function of the cab size and the speaker.
Plug your amp into a bigger cab and you will hear all the bass that the little combo cab is not capable of reproducing.

Thing with these old tweed amps is they need the bass attenuated, so the cab is a big part of the sound.

Fuengi

Modulus_Amps said:

Fuengi said:

I wonder how much cabinet material matters? The Honeyboy 8" 5F1 is made from sapele and it's a long, long way from being boxy.

He used to use American White Oak but found that too.much of the supply was unusable. 

@munckee has (or had if he's sold it now) Silver face Champ is also pretty room filling. That's old dry pine I think? Bo

Boxyness is easier to hear when you have two amps/cabs side by side, it is a function of the cab size and the speaker.
Plug your amp into a bigger cab and you will hear all the bass that the little combo cab is not capable of reproducing.

Thing with these old tweed amps is they need the bass attenuated, so the cab is a big part of the sound.

I've got the 5F1 next to a 10" 5F2 and a 10" Blackstar Studio EL34. The Blackstar is the most directionally narrow of the three - sounds great in front of the speaker, less so off at an angle - and the 5F1 the most room filling. It's an amazing little amp. 

I also compared it to a Tone King Falcon 10 with similar results. 

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

Plug your amp into a bigger cab and you will hear all the bass that the little combo cab is not capable of reproducing.

Thing with these old tweed amps is they need the bass attenuated, so the cab is a big part of the sound.

Nah... the Champ I had sounded *immense* through an old Marshall straight 4x12" (wired for 4 ohms) - not too much bass at all, in fact perfect. I should really have kept that set-up but it was just impractical really.

The Victoria 5112 a friend had sounded fantastic too, with a G12H-30 in the cab. So much better* than a Champ with an 8" speaker you wouldn't even think it was the same circuit.

(*Unless you specifically want that ratty blues/early rock'n'roll sound... I did, for one band, but it was far too limited for anything else.)

Emiel

Zoolooter said:

Emiel said:

In case you might like a more American sounding speaker, have a look at the Jensen P10R-F. Fabulous sounding speaker and not too loud. I'm using one in a Tweed Harvard housed in a larger Deluxe cabinet.

I’ve been looking out for one of these secondhand. I’d really like to change the C10R that’s In there at the moment, but need something with low efficiency.  I’d be interested to know if you tried other speakers and what made the P10R-F standout. 

I concur with Modulus_Amps. Tweed amps are generally speaking rather bass and mid heavy sounding so you don't want to extend those frequencies even more. That is the reason why I don't like Celestions or speakers with big magnets in these amps. They just make the amp too boomy and/or mid heavy sounding. I tried many many speakers in the Harvard (which is basically a Deluxe but a bit more brighter and tighter sounding) and for me the P10R-F has just the right balance in frequencies. It tames the low end but not too much, it has a nice sparkle and thickens up nicely when the amp is turned up. A real dynamic and vintage-y sounding speaker.

munckee

Fuengi said:

I wonder how much cabinet material matters? The Honeyboy 8" 5F1 is made from sapele and it's a long, long way from being boxy.

He used to use American White Oak but found that too.much of the supply was unusable. 

@munckee has (or had if he's sold it now) Silver face Champ is also pretty room filling. That's old dry pine I think? 

I'm not sure what the cab of the champ is, the princeton is birch ply.  I think both sound louder and airier than other amps I have had/tried and I think it is because both cabs are relatively large for the speaker, the champ is as big as the super champ x 2 but has 8 rather than 10 inch, the princeton bigger again for a 10.

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

Plug your amp into a bigger cab and you will hear all the bass that the little combo cab is not capable of reproducing.

Thing with these old tweed amps is they need the bass attenuated, so the cab is a big part of the sound.

Nah... the Champ I had sounded *immense* through an old Marshall straight 4x12" (wired for 4 ohms) - not too much bass at all, in fact perfect. I should really have kept that set-up but it was just impractical really.

The Victoria 5112 a friend had sounded fantastic too, with a G12H-30 in the cab. So much better* than a Champ with an 8" speaker you wouldn't even think it was the same circuit.

(*Unless you specifically want that ratty blues/early rock'n'roll sound... I did, for one band, but it was far too limited for anything else.)

but, but... you are a bass player!?

I much prefer the champ through a bigger cab and speaker too, but the bass can be improved a lot.