Cheap guitars and worker exploitation?

Creed_Clicks

If I were to take the moral high ground 100% of the time, I'd be walking around naked and hungry. However, got me thinking. Looking at some G&Ls over the last few weeks and the price difference between an American and Asian made model are massive, for obvious reasons.
I picked up a Squier Bullet Mustang recently, and surely someone is getting screwed along the way during the build for a guitar that cheap?
How much are the workers earning and are their conditions good? It's convenient for me in Europe to spend very little, but at what expense?
It got me thinking about the G&L tributes v American again, as an example. I'm sure workers in America are being exploited as well, not necessarily with G&L, but I can guess they are getting paid a fair enough wage, hence the prices.

tabano

whenever something is mass produced someone is getting  screwed up along the way,
that someone is in the factory not in the headquarters most likely...

Sassafras

As long as we demand lots of cheap mediocre stuff rather than fewer good products, people will always be exploited.

monquixote

It's a tricky question.

The workers are almost certainly working under worse conditions and longer hours relative to people working in European, or US factories, but the relevant question is probably how they are paid and treated relative to other workers in that country.

Refusing to buy guitars from developing countries doesn't help the people in those countries as working in factories is one of the ways that people are able to get themselves out of poverty.

That being said it would be good to see factory tours etc to know what the conditions were like.

TwoSpellWizard

tabano said:

whenever something is mass produced someone is getting  screwed up along the way,
that someone is in the factory not in the headquarters most likely...

Yep!

There can be no ethical consumption under capitalism. There's always gonna be someone getting shafted.

RaymondLin

Double edge sword.

We all want workers paid a good wage, actually, some people don't think they deserve it in some places!
We all want cheap guitars.
We (well some people do) all go nuts seeing a £1000 PRS that is made in China.
We (well some people do) all look down Far East made instruments.

In this day and age, material cost is pretty even across the board so the majority of savings is made through labour, you got to ask yourself if you care really.  My GS Mini has a perfect fret job, clean as anything, as good a finish as a Core PRS.  Location doesn't buy you a better guitar, it all comes down to how they are trained and the way the factory is set up.

Someone, somewhere is being exploited in any mass produced guitars, even a custom shop level guitar some little guy up the supply chain is probably not getting a great wage.

monquixote

RaymondLin said:

Someone, somewhere is being exploited in any mass produced guitars, even a custom shop level guitar some little guy up the supply chain is probably not getting a great wage.

Yes, I think it's important to say what we mean by "exploited".

Taking a Marxist perspective everyone who isn't an artisan builder / owner who controls the means of production is being exploited, but that's not really helpful to address this question.

For me the more interesting question is the extent to which they are being exploited relative to a worker for a Fender USA factory. How does their quality of life compare to what constitutes a middle class life in that country.

A good example would be working as a software developer. Some Indian friends have told me that though you get paid a lot less in absolute terms working in India for a big IT company your quality of life is actually higher in terms of being able to afford a big house etc.

Tannin

This is exactly what the Americans keep saying. "Our guitars are made with expensive labor, that's why Martins and Gibsons cost more than foreign brands, comparing like for like". 

There are two ridiculous things about that argument. (1) The USA pays lower wages than many other countries, such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and probably the whole of Western Europe. (2) Like for like, the guitars made in most of those places are cheaper than US-made ones. I'm not sure about UK and EU ones, and I don't think NZ or Taiwan make many, but made-in-Japan and made-in-Australia guitars absolutely cream the US majors for value, and the Koreans and the Canadians go better again. (Not sure if those last two make any Martin or US Guild quality though, they are more focussed on the mid-range.)

Blueingreen

monquixote said:

It's a tricky question.

The workers are almost certainly working under worse conditions and longer hours relative to people working in European, or US factories, but the relevant question is probably how they are paid and treated relative to other workers in that country.

Refusing to buy guitars from developing countries doesn't help the people in those countries as working in factories is one of the ways that people are able to get themselves out of poverty.

That being said it would be good to see factory tours etc to know what the conditions were like.

Yes. I’d argue the real question is “if the factory were to be  shut down on the grounds that it’s immorally exploiting workers would those workers be better or worse off”.

 If the answer is “worse off” then by refusing to buy a guitar on moral grounds you’re not showing solidarity with the workers you’re virtue signalling at their expense. If the price of the guitar makes you feel guilty you could send a cheque to a local charity.

earwighoney

Creed_Clicks said:

If I were to take the moral high ground 100% of the time, I'd be walking around naked and hungry. However, got me thinking. Looking at some G&Ls over the last few weeks and the price difference between an American and Asian made model are massive, for obvious reasons.
I picked up a Squier Bullet Mustang recently, and surely someone is getting screwed along the way during the build for a guitar than cheap?
How much are the workers earning and are their conditions good? It's convenient for me in Europe to spend very little, but at what expense?
It got me thinking about the G&L tributes v American again, as an example. I'm sure workers in America are being exploited as well, not necessarily with G&L, but I can guess they are getting paid a fair enough wage, hence the prices.

I can't remember exactly but Cort's factory in Korea has had protests by it's workers with support coming from musicians like RATM.

I think Cort owns the major factory in Indonesia that makes guitars for G&L, Squier, etc.

So if the conditions in Korea aren't great, I can't imagine they would be fantastic in Indonesia.

I read somewhere workers in Eastman are paid well, which is one of the reasons their instruments are more expensive. 

It's like with clothes and sweat shops I guess?

Jackobean

Gibson are regularly voted one of the worst employers in America. Ethical guitar consumption is definitely a more complex issue than country of origin. 

Cols

Not as bad as you’d think (at least not for the big brands), but not what would be considered normal in an American or European factory.

You can compare and contrast factory tours of Epiphone in China and Gibson USA, bearing in mind that neither of them are warts-and-all tours.  Shop floor conditions are pretty similar; dare I say it, the Chinese factory looks a bit better.

https://youtu.be/LRczd_ZEf4E 

https://youtu.be/uVU86GGV07A 

From experience, Chinese factories are extremely regimented - head down and concentrate on your work.  It’s not uncommon for workers to come from other regions in China and be housed in a dormitory block adjacent to the factory.  Wages will be much lower than western countries, but so will the cost of living.

Tannin

The key question, it seems to me, is this: "When I buy a cheap made-in-China guitar, is that (a) propping up an exploitative system  and helping perpetuate unfairness? Or (b) helping some hard-working, underpaid person put bread on the table, even if he or she does only get one cent in my dollar? 

I don't know the answer, I'm just posing the question. 

But I don't have to answer it, because before I even get to that question is the more important question of where and how the timbers are being sourced. Are we talking unsustainable clearfelling?  Illegal logging of the little remaining Orangutan habitat? Slavery and child labor in those same parts of Africa where the conflict diamonds come from? Yet more clearing of the Amazon rainforests? 

If I can't answer those questions to my satisfaction - and I don't personally know of a single company in China or Indonesia which has documented its timber sources and practices satisfactorily - I look elsewhere. One or two of the American majors have unsavory form in this department too. Happy not to buy another Gibson. Happy to put Taylor and Yamaha and Cole Clark and Maton and Seagull/Godin - all companies genuinely trying to do the right thing - up near the top of my list. I'd be pleased to add others to that "list of good companies". 

crunchman

Jackobean said:

Gibson are regularly voted one of the worst employers in America. Ethical guitar consumption is definitely a more complex issue than country of origin. 

Is that still the case now that Henry J has departed?

SteveRobinson

Tannin said:

This is exactly what the Americans keep saying. "Our guitars are made with expensive labor, that's why Martins and Gibsons cost more than foreign brands, comparing like for like". 

There are two ridiculous things about that argument. (1) The USA pays lower wages than many other countries, such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and probably the whole of Western Europe.

Does it? I don't know how much workers in guitar factories spoecifically are paid but the USA is still near the top for average wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

Lots of US employees of course will be in high-wage jobs but lots more will be on minimum wage.

Creed_Clicks

@Tannin good points on the wood sourcing.

Creed_Clicks

monquixote said:

RaymondLin said:

Someone, somewhere is being exploited in any mass produced guitars, even a custom shop level guitar some little guy up the supply chain is probably not getting a great wage.

Yes, I think it's important to say what we mean by "exploited".

Taking a Marxist perspective everyone who isn't an artisan builder / owner who controls the means of production is being exploited, but that's not really helpful to address this question.

For me the more interesting question is the extent to which they are being exploited relative to a worker for a Fender USA factory. How does their quality of life compare to what constitutes a middle class life in that country.

A good example would be working as a software developer. Some Indian friends have told me that though you get paid a lot less in absolute terms working in India for a big IT company your quality of life is actually higher in terms of being able to afford a big house etc.

Yes, I was thinking that as well. 

impmann

TBH, as one of the few people on this forum who has actually ever visited a far eastern guitar manufacturing facility (to quality audit it...)... perhaps I have a different perspective.

Its not about exploitation. Wages (and other infrastructure - including H&S legislation/environmental concerns) are just lower in that part of the world, therefore the cost of manufacturing is lower. But it won't be for much longer - we've already seen Japan go from being cheap manufacture to premium, Korea is not far behind... and when that happens, to satisfy demand for stuff that is in real terms cheaper than its ever been another 'emerging market' will become the guitar manufacturer of choice for the bottom end of the market. However, those workers are being paid *well* in that country and have a good job compared to digging a ditch etc... Its a good quality of life for that part of the world.

The other thing to mention is wood stocks and raw materials - most of these are in the East. Like it or not, thats where stuff is ending up because thats where the majority is made. Therefore to buy the "premium" wood Fender and Gibson (and PRS etc) have to compete with the huge buying power of the contract manufacturers in the East. Ironically, that same stock is then sold back to them later on when they buy their far eastern made stuff... ask me how I know.

As I've said before, I've seen guitars made in China that are genuinely better made than anything I've seen from America using exquisite woods. There are some fantastic luthiers (both Eastern and Western) based over there right now but most of the stuff exported for our consumption has been made to a pricepoint decided *OVER HERE*. 

But hey, get right on and say its about exploitation if you like - and boycott cheap brands if it makes you happy. It won't change a single thing... 

Creed_Clicks

@impmann I wouldn't boycott or not buy, but if I knew that there were kids being whipped somewhere to make my "perfect mod platform", then yeah, I would.

Tannin

SteveRobinson said:

 I don't know how much workers in guitar factories spoecifically are paid but the USA is still near the top for average wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

That article does not provide an actual average wage. It provides an arithmetical mean wage, which is not and cannot be a fair or useful measure of central tendency ("average") in any skewed distribution. The useful figures here - and the ones which any honest statistician would insist on - are the median wage, and the minimum wage. The article provides neither. Look at the minimum wages in those countries I listed. That's how much a poor person earns. The USA comes bottom of the list. (It is of course, still much higher than, say, Indonesia.)

SteveRobinson

Are the guys in the Gibson factory on minimum wage though? Or those in the Cort factory?