Cheap guitars and worker exploitation?

impmann

Creed_Clicks said:

@impmann I wouldn't boycott or not buy, but if I knew that there were kids being whipped somewhere to make my "perfect mod platform", then yeah, I would.

Never seen that in a guitar factory. Nor heard of it, either - even when Cort had that god-awful factory in Korea.

Tannin

Top post, Impmann. However, there are excellent sources of wood outside the East. The Canadians have done sterling work on developing ways to use sustainable local timbers. The same with the Australians. Both former colonies grow most of their own timber, and export more for other companies to use. In the US Taylor and in Japan Yamaha go to a lot of trouble to verify and document their sources, and preserve them for future generations. And I note that several European manufacturers are also doing things with sustainable local timbers. 

You may well be right about labour conditions and what we buy (as mentioned above, I am undecided on that) but so far as environmental responsibility goes, there is every reason in the world to buy from one of the companies I mentioned earlier, or others like them.

guitarjack66

I find it hard not to disagree with Tannin here. He's making some excellent points.

maltingsaudio

SteveRobinson said:

Are the guys in the Gibson factory on minimum wage though? Or those in the Cort factory?

You seem to imply making guitars is a special thing. The corporations just make product that can be sold at a profit.

SteveRobinson

maltingsaudio said:

SteveRobinson said:

Are the guys in the Gibson factory on minimum wage though? Or those in the Cort factory?

You seem to imply making guitars is a special thing. The corporations just make product that can be sold at a profit.

I thought this conversation was specifically about guitars, it's even in the title?

Tannin said:

 (1) The USA pays lower wages than many other countries, such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and probably the whole of Western Europe. 

I'm just questioning this assertion where guitars are concerned. 

How do we know what a person in a US guitar factory earns compared to one in Korea? 

Litterick

A report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute estimates, "more than 80,000 Uyghurs were transferred out of Xinjiang to work in factories across China between 2017 and 2019, and some of them were sent directly from detention camps. The estimated figure is conservative and the actual figure is likely to be far higher. In factories far away from home, they typically live in segregated dormitories, undergo organised Mandarin and ideological training outside working hours, are subject to constant surveillance, and are forbidden from participating in religious observances. Numerous sources, including government documents, show that transferred workers are assigned minders and have limited freedom of movement."

I don't know if any are making guitars, but I refuse to buy Chinese-made products if I can.

RichardT

"I’d argue the real question is “if the factory were to be  shut down on the grounds that it’s immorally exploiting workers would those workers be better or worse off”."

Seriously? Because exploitative wages are better than no wages at all we're all ethically in the clear? Or perhaps I've misunderstood your argument. I certainly hope so.

RichardT

Litterick said:

A report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute estimates......

Yes, it's not simply a question of guitar factory pay rates relative to local norms, or indeed of pay rates at all. We're talking about states that lack any real democratic accountability and/or where the rule of law as we experience it does not apply. This has very direct implications for workers' rights, conditions, ability to organise, etc. etc.

57Deluxe

Sassafras said:

As long as we demand lots of cheap mediocre stuff rather than fewer good products, people will always be exploited.

I never 'Demand' cheap gear, I just buy what I can afford.

maltingsaudio

SteveRobinson said:

maltingsaudio said:

SteveRobinson said:

Are the guys in the Gibson factory on minimum wage though? Or those in the Cort factory?

You seem to imply making guitars is a special thing. The corporations just make product that can be sold at a profit.

I thought this conversation was specifically about guitars, it's even in the title?

Tannin said:

 (1) The USA pays lower wages than many other countries, such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and probably the whole of Western Europe. 

I'm just questioning this assertion where guitars are concerned. 

How do we know what a person in a US guitar factory earns compared to one in Korea? 

@SteveRobinson The conversation is about guitars as far as we are concerned, but it is very unlikely that the corporations who produce them give a fig if they produce guitars cars clothes or computers, it’s just numbers on a spreadsheet to them.

I would cite Yamaha here, the parent company makes both instruments and motorcycles, as you know.

Funkfingers

Mass production guitar manufacture is as subject to supply and demand as any other market sector.

If morally conflicted people with disposable income do not buy the products, the manufacturing jobs soon vanish. 

RichardT

Or employers amend their business models to respond to consumers' ethical concerns. This would hardly be unprecedented.

guitarjack66

RichardT said:

Litterick said:

A report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute estimates......

Yes, it's not simply a question of guitar factory pay rates relative to local norms, or indeed of pay rates at all. We're talking about states that lack any real democratic accountability and/or where the rule of law as we experience it does not apply. This has very direct implications for workers' rights, conditions, ability to organise, etc. etc.

Is this the UK we are talking about?

rlw

Not a mention of Mexico so far....

Musicwolf

Litterick said:

but I refuse to buy Chinese-made products if I can.

Out of interest, how difficult do you find that in practce?

I visited China once on business and, since it was my first visit, I asked my family if they wanted anything uniquely Chinese as a gift.  My young son just looked at me as though I was daft and said "I thought that everything was made in China?".

gavin_axecaster

earwighoney said:

Creed_Clicks said:

If I were to take the moral high ground 100% of the time, I'd be walking around naked and hungry. However, got me thinking. Looking at some G&Ls over the last few weeks and the price difference between an American and Asian made model are massive, for obvious reasons.
I picked up a Squier Bullet Mustang recently, and surely someone is getting screwed along the way during the build for a guitar than cheap?
How much are the workers earning and are their conditions good? It's convenient for me in Europe to spend very little, but at what expense?
It got me thinking about the G&L tributes v American again, as an example. I'm sure workers in America are being exploited as well, not necessarily with G&L, but I can guess they are getting paid a fair enough wage, hence the prices.

I can't remember exactly but Cort's factory in Korea has had protests by it's workers with support coming from musicians like RATM.

I think Cort owns the major factory in Indonesia that makes guitars for G&L, Squier, etc.

So if the conditions in Korea aren't great, I can't imagine they would be fantastic in Indonesia.

I read somewhere workers in Eastman are paid well, which is one of the reasons their instruments are more expensive. 

It's like with clothes and sweat shops I guess?

IIRC the protests were about working conditions in the Korean factory so Cort moved production to Indonesia. I don't think they still have a Korean production facility.

SteveRobinson

earwighoney said:

I read somewhere workers in Eastman are paid well, which is one of the reasons their instruments are more expensive. 

It's the other way round. The guitars sell for what the market will stand. This might mean that Eastman can pay a bit more to attract the top talent but they won't pay any more than they need to.

Creed_Clicks

I wasn't suggesting that just because the instruments are made in Asia, that workers are being exploited. It's more that I have no idea what conditions are like there. 
It's very difficult to avoid buying any product with parts that aren't made in China, but how far do you go with that. Avoid US made guitars because of certain things going on over there....

pintspiller

I generally don't buy anything based on avoiding products made by exploited workers (I avoid Primark as it is generally an unpleasant place to shop however).

What I choose to buy is generally on price and availability be it musical or otherwise. I've been caught our buying stuff via eBay where the seller didn't claim to be Chinese with a six-week delivery. But I still like to buy some items from shops so I can return them if faulty (usually Argos).

Pabcrane

Creed_Clicks said:

I wasn't suggesting that just because the instruments are made in Asia, that workers are being exploited. It's more that I have no idea what conditions are like there. 
It's very difficult to avoid buying any product with parts that aren't made in China, but how far do you go with that. Avoid US made guitars because of certain things going on over there....

Hopefully not to sound too Internationalé but workers are getting fucked all over the place.

In the U.S. and even in the U.K. (with arguably a stronger tradition of worker rights) people are pissing in jars to keep their jobs I believe.

I honestly don't know what to do to improve things for everybody. Perhaps starting to value people more than profit? However that doesn't seem to butter many parsnips economically.