Solo Key Question

Gassage

Right, not often I ask a theory question but....

In this amazing version of Crowded House's Distant Sun, the first solo is played over the chorus chord progression of Eb, Bb, FMin, Eb. (I think!)

The second solo is played over the amazing outro hook, Eb, G, G#.

I kind of use CMin Pentatonic with a maj thrown in here and there, but it never sounds right. It isn't FMin, that's for sure. 

What is the right scale, and is it the same for each part? I know Mark Hart is using a 12 string, but even then, CMin doesn't really quite work. Should I be using the major scale? I am lost.

(for the record, I know they're capoing and I think I've used the correct pitch chords, not the capoed chords)

Crowded House Distant sun live - YouTube

CoffeeAndTV

F minor pentatonic is a great choice over a C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

Edit:

However, just rereading the question, I didn’t answer it very well.  The key of the song is Eb, so the Fmin is the ii, Bb the V, and the Eb root.  

The notes in Cmin will fit over the Fmin really well, you can use the Bb7 pentatonic over the Bb7, (or Gmin and/or Fmin), and use the Gmin and Eb major pentatonic over the Eb.

Gassage

CoffeeAndTV said:

F minor Pentatonic is a great choice over C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

It still doesn't sound right though....:(

jazzlemming

CoffeeAndTV said:

F minor Pentatonic is a great choice over C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

I think you maybe mean G minor pentatonic?
Also natural 6 of F min is D, 2nd of C minor.

C harmonic minor would be my first choice for the G chord. So C minor pentatonic over Eb, C harmonic minor over G, back to C minor or F minor pentatonic for the Ab.
Or if in doubt, aim for G7 arpeggio for the G.

Gassage

Edited- Oops, I’m wrong

CoffeeAndTV

jazzlemming said:

CoffeeAndTV said:

F minor Pentatonic is a great choice over C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

I think you maybe mean G minor pentatonic?
Also natural 6 of F min is D, 2nd of C minor.

My god, you’re right! I was thinking using the Cmin penatatonic over the Fmin and using the natural 6th, (Ab).  

Sorry OP. 

jazzlemming

CoffeeAndTV said:

jazzlemming said:

CoffeeAndTV said:

F minor Pentatonic is a great choice over C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

I think you maybe mean G minor pentatonic?
Also natural 6 of F min is D, 2nd of C minor.

My god, you’re right! I was thinking using the Cmin penatatonic over the Fmin and using the natural 6th, (Ab).  

Sorry OP. 

Ah, yes that would make more sense!

Brad

Gassage said:

Right, not often I ask a theory question but....

In this amazing version of Crowded House's Distant Sun, the first solo is played over the chorus chord progression of Eb, Bb, FMin, Eb. (I think!)

The second solo is played over the amazing outro hook, Eb, G, G#.

I kind of use CMin Pentatonic with a maj thrown in here and there, but it never sounds right. It isn't FMin, that's for sure. 

What is the right scale, and is it the same for each part? I know Mark Hart is using a 12 string, but even then, CMin doesn't really quite work. Should I be using the major scale? I am lost.

(for the record, I know they're capoing and I think I've used the correct pitch chords, not the capoed chords)

Crowded House Distant sun live - YouTube

Chords for the first solo are Bb, Fm, Ab, Bb, Eb

Chords for the second solo are Cm, G(7), Ab, Eb, G(7), Ab

I think it's a case of keeping things simple, but just understanding the differences between relative major and minor scales and how to apply them, even though they're the same collection of notes.

Solo one - Think Eb major pentatonic, same notes as C minor pentatonic but where you end phrases will need to be appropriate.

Solo two - I'm hearing more as C minor so C minor pentatonic and as @jazzlemming says, try C harmonic minor (or G phrygian major if you're pedantic) over the G chord to hit that B natural and Ab major pent (or Fm pent depending on your persuasion) over the Ab chord.

However, you should be able to get a great solo just using Ebmaj or Cm pentatonic scales.

Gassage

jazzlemming said:

CoffeeAndTV said:

jazzlemming said:

CoffeeAndTV said:

F minor Pentatonic is a great choice over C minor, you’ll get a nice minor 9 sound, I think you just need to resolve it now and again.  Add a natural 6th in the F minor which is the 3rd of C minor. 

I think you maybe mean G minor pentatonic?
Also natural 6 of F min is D, 2nd of C minor.

My god, you’re right! I was thinking using the Cmin penatatonic over the Fmin and using the natural 6th, (Ab).  

Sorry OP. 

Ah, yes that would make more sense!

What do you think Mark Hart is playing in
the video? 

He’s a pianist by background and I often find his solos left field 

Gassage

Brad said:

Gassage said:

Right, not often I ask a theory question but....

In this amazing version of Crowded House's Distant Sun, the first solo is played over the chorus chord progression of Eb, Bb, FMin, Eb. (I think!)

The second solo is played over the amazing outro hook, Eb, G, G#.

I kind of use CMin Pentatonic with a maj thrown in here and there, but it never sounds right. It isn't FMin, that's for sure. 

What is the right scale, and is it the same for each part? I know Mark Hart is using a 12 string, but even then, CMin doesn't really quite work. Should I be using the major scale? I am lost.

(for the record, I know they're capoing and I think I've used the correct pitch chords, not the capoed chords)

Crowded House Distant sun live - YouTube

Chords for the first solo are Bb, Fm, Ab, Bb, Eb

Chords for the second solo are Cm, G(7), Ab, Eb, G(7), Ab

I think it's a case of keeping things simple, but just understanding the differences between relative major and minor scales and how to apply them, even though they're the same collection of notes.

Solo one - Think Eb major pentatonic, same notes as C minor pentatonic but where you end phrases will need to be appropriate.

Solo two - I'm hearing more as C minor so C minor pentatonic and as @jazzlemming says, try C harmonic minor (or G phrygian major if you're pedantic) over the G chord to hit that B natural and Ab major pent (or Fm pent depending on your persuasion) over the Ab chord.

However, you should be able to get a great solo just using Ebmaj or Cm pentatonic scales.

Oh FFS;

Fuck yes. I now realise what I’ve done; they capo in 3rd fret, I do so on first fret (I learned it by ear!) and play A, Emin D shapes. I’ve confused myself 

No wonder I couldn’t understand my own fucking maths. I’ve actually re-transposed it twice in my head 

Lol

jazzlemming

In the outro, he’s using Eb major/C minor. He’s playing Bbs instead of B naturals on the G chord, which I guess is his prerogative, haha.

viz

Gassage said:

Brad said:

Gassage said:

Right, not often I ask a theory question but....

In this amazing version of Crowded House's Distant Sun, the first solo is played over the chorus chord progression of Eb, Bb, FMin, Eb. (I think!)

The second solo is played over the amazing outro hook, Eb, G, G#.

I kind of use CMin Pentatonic with a maj thrown in here and there, but it never sounds right. It isn't FMin, that's for sure. 

What is the right scale, and is it the same for each part? I know Mark Hart is using a 12 string, but even then, CMin doesn't really quite work. Should I be using the major scale? I am lost.

(for the record, I know they're capoing and I think I've used the correct pitch chords, not the capoed chords)

Crowded House Distant sun live - YouTube

Chords for the first solo are Bb, Fm, Ab, Bb, Eb

Chords for the second solo are Cm, G(7), Ab, Eb, G(7), Ab

I think it's a case of keeping things simple, but just understanding the differences between relative major and minor scales and how to apply them, even though they're the same collection of notes.

Solo one - Think Eb major pentatonic, same notes as C minor pentatonic but where you end phrases will need to be appropriate.

Solo two - I'm hearing more as C minor so C minor pentatonic and as @jazzlemming says, try C harmonic minor (or G phrygian major if you're pedantic) over the G chord to hit that B natural and Ab major pent (or Fm pent depending on your persuasion) over the Ab chord.

However, you should be able to get a great solo just using Ebmaj or Cm pentatonic scales.

Oh FFS;

Fuck yes. I now realise what I’ve done; they capo in 3rd fret, I do so on first fret (I learned it by ear!) and play A, Emin D shapes. I’ve confused myself 

No wonder I couldn’t understand my own fucking maths. I’ve actually re-transposed it twice in my head 

Lol

It’s so much harder doing it in one’s head, totally agree!

On the 2nd solo, C minor, the 2nd chord is as you say, a G (major), or a G7. It’s the (major) V chord of a minor key, which isn’t diatonic to ther rest of the chords. And yep, theoretically over that chord you ‘should’ play a B not a Bb. But should is bollocks. Like the guitarist, you don’t have to, you can just obstinately continue throughout the progression with C minor, and you’ll get that rocky / hendrixy / grungey sound which is so delicious. So I’d say yep, C minor throughout. 

The chord that gives you the major/minor sound on that G would be the “G7#9” - x 10 9 10 11 x. So you can see how nicely the major 3rd and minor 3rd go together.

The #9 is (to me, and nobody agrees with me on this) a terrible name for it, because it’s not an augmented 2nd, it’s just a minor 3rd, well, minor 10th, contrasting with the major 3rd on the D string. 

Gassage

As an aside, I was at this show and the musicianship was staggering all night- the power at the end of this is remarkable even 25 yrs later.

rsvmark

@Gassage ;
You seen this James? I reckon you will enjoy the story. His own solo at the beginning is bloody hard but worth a go too!

https://youtu.be/bB7x638PhVM

Gassage

rsvmark said:

@Gassage ;
You seen this James? I reckon you will enjoy the story. His own solo at the beginning is bloody hard but worth a go too!

https://youtu.be/bB7x638PhVM

Brilliant.

Thx buddy. What a piece of songwriting.

Ironically, the best versions are Neil playing it on his own...with an acoustic.