Ian Elson Guitars - AVOID!!

Lewy

I get the comments about £700 being way too cheap for a custom instrument but if I remember this cad’s original marketing, wasn’t it all about getting no-frills but quality hand made instruments into the hands of everyday players? As such it was more along the lines of the Gordon Smith ethic and similarly priced. I remember thinking they looked horrible and that his website came across as opinionated and dismissive of the buying motivations of 90% of the guitar playing public ... but they looked basic enough to not be outrageously underpriced for what they were. 

viclennard

Lewy said:

I get the comments about £700 being way too cheap for a custom instrument but if I remember this cad’s original marketing wasn’t it all about getting no-frills but quality hand made instruments into the hands of everyday players? As such it was more along the lines of the Gordon Smith ethic and similarly priced. I remember thinking they looked horrible and that his website came across as opinionated and dismissive of the buying motivations of 90% of the guitar playing public ... but they looked basic enough to not be outrageously underpriced for what they were. 

I owned an early Gordon Smith guitar in the mid-1970s. It was a basic, affordable handmade guitar. Pretty much what I expected from Elson.

jimcroisdale

viclennard said:

Lewy said:

I get the comments about £700 being way too cheap for a custom instrument but if I remember this cad’s original marketing wasn’t it all about getting no-frills but quality hand made instruments into the hands of everyday players? As such it was more along the lines of the Gordon Smith ethic and similarly priced. I remember thinking they looked horrible and that his website came across as opinionated and dismissive of the buying motivations of 90% of the guitar playing public ... but they looked basic enough to not be outrageously underpriced for what they were. 

I owned an early Gordon Smith guitar in the mid-1970s. It was a basic, affordable handmade guitar. Pretty much what I expected from Elson.

Yes, this was basically my train of thought.

russpm

A cheap car still needs to be road worthy. No excuses no matter about the price.

digitalscream

viclennard said:

A few answers to your questions (as I'm one of those caught out by Elson).

A friend made me aware of the deal he was offering: six guitars with the same body/neck shape and material (mahogany) with a choice of fingerboard wood, tuners, pickups (Bare Knuckle) and bridge. On speaking with Elson, I became aware that he custom shaped the bodies and neck, starting with a block of mahogany. He bought the hardware at a dealer discount. By building six guitars in parallel there was a bulk saving plus he had stocks of various items. My figures told me he would probably be making around £150-200 profit per guitar. That's around a grand for a side project. I didn't see that as a red flag especially as there were no negative comments anywhere in December 2019. Given the handmaking in parallel, two-and-a-half months didn't seem unreasonable.

What did I expect? A guitar that would bridge the gap between the other guitars I own. I liked the idea of having a P90-based guitar, especially one with the Bare Knuckle version. Tim Mills had replicated a pair of Tom Holmes pickups for me previously and their pickups are really good. I liked the idea of solid mahogany and chose a decent trem unit (for an additional £85). My luthier maintains guitars for the likes of Mark Knopfler and Brian May and I know what he would have charged for a custom guitar. I didn't expect that level of quality - but I did expect a guitar that would have offered my a recording tonality I didn't have. I've owned many guitars in the past. This was an opportunity to have some input into the build.

Given the lockdowns last year, I wasn't surprised when the end-of-March deadline wasn't made. That said, I didn't expect it to be a further three months but any reasonable person would have allowed for this given the circumstances. 

I saw photos of the build as it progressed. I had various choices including the stain colour, fret wire and electrics. I spoke with Olly who wires up the guitars regarding possible wiring configurations. The six of us involved in the purchase were in communication. No-one raised any issues. This was no whim of a purchase and I'm not naive.

Given all the above, where are the red flags for a non-luthier?

To be fair, there is precisely one red flag there:

"side project"

Unless I'd seen extensive history, played one or two of their guitars and had recommendations and/or other reasons to have confidence, there is no way I'd be handing over cash to a luthier for whom it's a side-project until I had the guitar in my hands and I'd confirmed it to be as-expected.

There is a long and well-documented history on this forum of small-time, side-project-style luthiers simply overestimating their own skills, their ability to estimate and complete projects, and their ability to manage their finances.

Usually what happens is that they screw up a bit on a project and have to give a refund, but then can't sell on the guitar that's been returned for the same price. That puts them in a hole for the difference, so the money put down by the next customer pays for that deficit, but then there's no money left to buy the materials for their guitar; so a big sales push starts, using the money from those advance sales to cover the growing deficit in the hope that bulk-buying materials will bring them back to parity.

However, before they've got to the break-even point, they've got more orders than they can reasonably fulfil in the agreed timescales. Completion deadlines are missed, and customers start getting nervous; some of them start to ask for their money back, which starts the cycle all over again. Eventually, the luthier mysteriously disappears, leaving a trail of court judgements and debt collectors in their wake.

Sometimes, they reappear a year or two later, claiming mental health problems (usually brought on by the stress of dealing with the situation they created), hoping to garner sympathy in lieu of money.

Very few of their customers ever get their money back, and they're never repaid for the stress and anxiety caused

octatonic

Not just luthiers.
Sometimes they are pedal makers.

Warblington

The FB lottery scam is a touch of inspired thinking despite being illegal. You can imagine the response to a disgruntled winner ( if one truly exists) ‘Send it back and I’ll refund your £15’ or more likely “what do you expect for £15?” 

WiresDreamDisasters

Aye, the likes of Devi Ever rings clear there.

ThePrettyDamned

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Aye, the likes of Devi Ever rings clear there.

Oh my god, completely forgot about all that. 

poopot

octatonic said:

Not just luthiers.
Sometimes they are pedal makers.

Cowboys in every industry!. I get a lot of work reshooting stuff for clients that thought they were “getting a bargain” most times they learn that lesson once tho’

poopot

Banned from commenting on his Facebook page...

he’s also taken down the links to the “lottery” so either he’s been pulled by the gaming commission (doubtful) or he’s busy reading this thread (more likely)

Shyster of a man!!!!!!

octatonic

The 'competitions' are still there for me.

I'm not commenting on anything because I don't want to be blocked.

Warblington

poopot said:

Banned from commenting on his Facebook page...

he’s also taken down the links to the “lottery” so either he’s been pulled by the gaming commission (doubtful) or he’s busy reading this thread (more likely)

Shyster of a man!!!!!!

He commented on here so yes he reads the thread. I’d like to know who and how the adjudication works? Could be a fictitious person. I smell a very large rat. I think he’d be well advised to refund the ‘competitors’ in his raffle/ lottery.

alexh

M1ck said:

FelineGuitars said:

M1ck said:

FelineGuitars 

** why the heck should a skilled guitar maker be making the same or less money as a shelf stacker in Aldi/Tesco/Lidl  or some other menial job is beyond me.

Woa WTF? That comes over all wrong (to me) 

I think these jobs are ESSENTIAL and hugely value the people who do these jobs and if the lockdown has taught us anything it is how vital these frontline jobs are.

And I have done my fair share of these jobs too when younger and know that they can be demanding jobs physically: shop work, kitchen porter, warehouse person.

But everybody knows what is meant by that term : a relatively unskilled job that requires little training

Even the description in the dictionary is:

menial

adjective

1. (of work) not requiring much skill and lacking prestige.
   
   
   Whilst a skilled guitarmaker may have done several years at college as well as an apprenticeship/internship and have years of skills development under their belt too, and still sadly be making only £15k-£20k a year after working their trade for several decades.

No need to spell it out I know its meaning

If you knew what it meant (an unskilled job) maybe can you explain what seemed all wrong to you? 

If we translate for you, why should someone doing a skilled job earn the same or less as someone doing an unskilled job, it's really hard to see what the problem is. 

Sevenof9

jimcroisdale said:

He's booted me off his Facebook page now, and written a nice little character assassination of me.

"I tried building a guitar for a customer who was on a very low budget. This year hasn't been easy so couldn't turn it down as I'd make nothing but keep working. Didn't work out unsurprisingly so I refunded him in full in 3 days of getting the guitar back (which I thought was really good going). Not for one of his friends though. Absolutely awful bloke. Bile has been incredible...I'm very upfront as anyone who has a guitar from me knows. This has been a bit of an eye opener. My initial mistake to think I could do it for that money I suppose but I thought I think I did the right thing. Live and learn. The guy himself has been cool about it"

So I'm an "absolutely awful bloke" now! Makes me glad to have shared this sorry tale in the first place. 

Well I for one I’m glad that you did raise this situation, I also hope that things pick up for your good self. The art involved in Lutherie I can only marvel at, it’s all I can do to change my strings!

Getting booted off Facebook is all you need to know about this case - it’s not about a lack of sympathy for guitar builders and I don’t fully agree that it is down to the consumer.

It’s like all those things on Amazon that I keep warning my nearest and dearest about ‘ but it’s got all this positive feedback’ she would say - and it’s not her fault, it’s just that I am a suspicious cynical Sheffielder and my radar picks up the marketeering, positive reviews from people who have been given a free product to review, negative feedback that disappears the next day, emails that I have been given myself to retract negative feedback in return for a free stay in that drug den apartment by the sea (slight glimpse of the Briney from a skylight if you stand precariously on a chair to look out)

This manufacturing of a positive market image, that’s all you need to know about this set up, The fact it’s about guitars is neither here nor there, it’s just plain hoodwinking - and it’s asking quite a lot for consumers to know the difference - you generally only know when you have The boat anchor (in this case) in your hands

So I am very grateful that you took the time, and hope all goes well for your good self in the future

Hattigol

poopot said:

Cowboys in every industry!. I get a lot of work reshooting stuff for clients that thought they were “getting a bargain” most times they learn that lesson once tho’

You're an assassin? Cool.

Adamski

How he can keep on saying “I did it for a small budget and it didn’t work out” is beyond me - that is literally zero excuse for the state of that dogs dinner of a guitar - in fact I’ve seen many actual dogs dinners that have looked better than that! 

digitalscream

Adamski said:

How he can keep on saying “I did it for a small budget and it didn’t work out” is beyond me - that is literally zero excuse for the state of that dogs dinner of a guitar - in fact I’ve seen many actual dogs dinners that have looked better than that! 

Indeed. You either do a job you'd be proud of for the price, or you don't do it at all. That's a standard rule in any business...no business that lasts will half-ass a job on the grounds of how much they're being paid. It's not an excuse.

octatonic

Adamski said:

How he can keep on saying “I did it for a small budget and it didn’t work out” is beyond me - that is literally zero excuse for the state of that dogs dinner of a guitar - in fact I’ve seen many actual dogs dinners that have looked better than that! 

It is part of a reframing thing he seems to be doing where this is something that 'happened to him' rather than something he actively chose.

I've got a family member who does it- there is no point challenging (my family member) on it because he is incapable of taking responsibility.
There is always a 'yeah I hear you but....' attached to any acceptance of responsibility.

stickyfiddle

octatonic said:

Adamski said:

How he can keep on saying “I did it for a small budget and it didn’t work out” is beyond me - that is literally zero excuse for the state of that dogs dinner of a guitar - in fact I’ve seen many actual dogs dinners that have looked better than that! 

It is part of a reframing thing he seems to be doing where this is something that 'happened to him' rather than something he actively chose.

I've got a family member who does it- there is no point challenging (my family member) on it because he is incapable of taking responsibility, there is always a 'yeah I hear you but....' attached to any acceptance of responsibility.

Definitely. One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned in advisory work is always admit to mistakes where you can’t 100% cover it up to the point that it’s literally impossible to know it happened. But the critical bit of what makes that work is that you have to take ownership of the error and be honest about it (within limits of course) AND offer multiple solutions and take ownership of them as well. Because that’s the sort of thing that builds trust with 95% of clients, rather than eroding it.