Ian Elson Guitars - AVOID!!

Blaendulais

jonnyscaramanga said:

Wow. 

I actually did my bit to help promote Ian back in 2015. He spammed me on Facebook asking me to promote his brand (we'd had no previous contact). I was a bit annoyed but for some reason I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and made this thread:

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/57197/

Various builders commented pointing out that it is not economically viable to build quality guitars by hand at the prices he advertised. Something was amiss. These points were made quite reasonably. Ian's replies to these reasonable criticisms were unnecessarily defensive, and I was quite embarrassed that I ever posted the thread.

And now this. At least we know why they were cheap now.

Why did you post that in the first place if he spammed you. Did you declare you'd been spammed by him then?

mendy

 

LastMantra

I don't like these kind of threads. Make me feel icky.

darcym

I may have missed the bit - but is not telling other people that the buyer 'couldn't afford to pay for it - so you where getting a bargain' a big part of the problem, it's slandering the original buyer as not having the cash for the guitar.

Bennyboy-UK

darcym said:

I may have missed the bit - but is not telling other people that the buyer 'couldn't afford to pay for it - so you where getting a bargain' a big part of the problem, it's slandering the original buyer as not having the cash for the guitar.

It is indeed. That’s stuff has been removed from the Facebook page now however.

darcym

Bennyboy-UK said:

darcym said:

I may have missed the bit - but is not telling other people that the buyer 'couldn't afford to pay for it - so you where getting a bargain' a big part of the problem, it's slandering the original buyer as not having the cash for the guitar.

It is indeed. That’s stuff has been removed from the Facebook page now however.

that is good - but it's in the wild, how many people read it ? ( I appreciate it's probably small fry) but the concept of someone slandering a buyer to make a sale is bad, but to hide bad work. 

Danielsguitars

Onpar said:

Danielsguitars said:

Onpar said:

Danielsguitars said:

It's people like this that give a proper custom builder a bad name and potentially put off anyone ever ordering anything again.

A custom flat top build is still more expensive to do than any mass made sub £1500 guitar.

I built a strat for someone and the whole lot works out about £1,000 in parts then add time and paying for a workshop etc, even at £2k no one is getting rich, I also had to customise the neck after it was finished to suit him a little better, it was only a small amount needed but still that's extra time doing it and refinishing it, that's what I hope a custom build gets you anyway, main thing he loves the guitar.

By contrast I set up a £150 squire tele bullet and was genuinely shocked how good it was, change the electrics and you have a good gigging guitar, we small builders cannot compete with this, we're a different market and only the individual can justify if it's worth it, just do your homework and go by recommendations if possible and visit the workshop.

Not sure how he comes back from this tbh but he'll have to work twice as hard now and get to some shows if possible, this is not an easy fix, good luck to him.

If it's a change to the guitar after it's been built to spec, like the neck example you gave, I assume the customer has to pay extra for the modification?

No they did not and what I got asked was to build something vintage spec which I did, turns out he likes a modern neck with narrower string spacing.

A custom build is just that imo, I had the guy come in while I tweaked it, was just a bit to come off the shoulders, then he left and I finished it and gave it back.

That is very honourable of you and great customer service. From a business perspective, you delivered what was originally requested so I believe it would have been perfectly reasonable to invoice for the additional work. 

I assume it's the Bradcaster you are referring to so its also good PR. That's a stunning looking and sounding guitar BTW. 

Yes it was mike's and it's taken a while to get it sorted out so he's happy, I had another guy come over to play a LP burst type build to tweak his neck before finishing because he has trouble with his hands, anyway he liked it then came to pick it up and he swapped it with one I'd built a couple of years ago, he just preferred that neck and there was virtually nothing in it, he's happy that's all that matters.

CoffeeAndTV

mendy said:

CoffeeAndTV said:

horse said:

My builds take so long because I make my own tools. By hand

My build takes even longer because I make my own hands first. By feet

Please can you all stop with these jokes. Guitar building is a very serious trade. All of my guitars are hand assembled on my kitchen table. I use only the finest Chinese parts. I had to watch dozens of YouTube videos to get where I am today. Please don’t belittle my trade. Regards, NoRefundsGuitars

Come on, it’s armless humour. 

brownovich

Ooooooh yeah I remember this! It’s like the sequel to Avatar! It’s too many years later for a follow up and nobody really wants to see anymore of the saga, but we’ll all watch it anyway....

Can’t say I’m surprised and although I’ve always thought this would be like getting a guitar built by Mr Bean, (but that’s because I happened to be on the Old thread) I have 100% sympathy for people who have been stung by this. Consumers shouldn’t have to research the Profit margins of a boutique builder before purchasing. Something was advertised for a set price, the consumer has a reasonable expectation that they will get something fit for purpose for that agreed price.

We all have our own opinions about gear and we all disagree from time to time but god damn, this is consumers being scammed consistently over a long period of time. If there’s one thing we should ALL be able to agree on, it’s that unscrupulous manufacturers should be driven out of the business.

I really wouldn’t be surprised if it’s time that Trading Standards were involved in this (if they aren’t already).

In the words of the Navi “Oel ngati kame....”

digitalscream

For what it's worth...up to about 7 years ago, Jaden was still selling his Series 2 guitars at £899. Now, they weren't custom (although there were some custom options), but they were made specifically to the price point - cheaper hardware, and the bodies and necks made in bulk by CNC and finished by hand.

They were truly great guitars; the fit, finish. feel and consistency was every bit as good as his more expensive guitars, just with cheaper components and woods.

It is (or was) possible to make quality guitars at that price point in the UK even as a solo luthier. Just not like this, apparently.

brownovich

digitalscream said:

For what it's worth...up to about 7 years ago, Jaden was still selling his Series 2 guitars at £899. Now, they weren't custom (although there were some custom options), but they were made specifically to the price point - cheaper hardware, and the bodies and necks made in bulk by CNC and finished by hand.

They were truly great guitars; the fit, finish. feel and consistency was every bit as good as his more expensive guitars, just with cheaper components and woods.

It is (or was) possible to make quality guitars at that price point in the UK even as a solo luthier. Just not like this, apparently.

Spot on, not all consumers will know the finer details on the industry, and the emphasis isn’t on them to do so.

FelineGuitars

digitalscream said:

For what it's worth...up to about 7 years ago, Jaden was still selling his Series 2 guitars at £899. Now, they weren't custom (although there were some custom options), but they were made specifically to the price point - cheaper hardware, and the bodies and necks made in bulk by CNC and finished by hand.

They were truly great guitars; the fit, finish. feel and consistency was every bit as good as his more expensive guitars, just with cheaper components and woods.

It is (or was) possible to make quality guitars at that price point in the UK even as a solo luthier. Just not like this, apparently.

Lets say that Jaden was happy to earn just over UK minimum wage*** from his endeavour making just these guitars, and that he is working from a family home with no overheads on that business (unlikely but lets pretend)

So maybe a 40 hour week  x 4 weeks in a monthly cycle =£1600

Let's say that outside of all his materials he is left with £300 per guitar to cover those wages 

So he has to make, but also SELL nearly 6 guitars a month  of a nice but fairly niche brand/style

Not all that easy and left with very little margin for stuff to go wrong and cover upkeep on his machinery 

I have often said it of small low price guitar start-ups  - one of the big stumbling blocks is not building  in enough of a cushion for when stuff goes wrong.

I am sure that the difficulty of having to refund a customer as Ian Elson had to is so much harder in this situation where there is not enough cashflow spare to do that quickly and easily

However if you are going to be choosing to sell for a higher price you need for your stuff to be absolutely the best it can be and present and promote with style and care via your website and social media etc.

** why the heck should a skilled guitar maker be making the same or less money as a shelf stacker in Aldi/Tesco/Lidl  or some other menial job is beyond me.

crunchman

digitalscream said:

For what it's worth...up to about 7 years ago, Jaden was still selling his Series 2 guitars at £899. Now, they weren't custom (although there were some custom options), but they were made specifically to the price point - cheaper hardware, and the bodies and necks made in bulk by CNC and finished by hand.

They were truly great guitars; the fit, finish. feel and consistency was every bit as good as his more expensive guitars, just with cheaper components and woods.

It is (or was) possible to make quality guitars at that price point in the UK even as a solo luthier. Just not like this, apparently.

£899 seven years ago is a bit over £1000 now.  That leaves a lot more margin than £700.

The CNC will also reduce the amount of labour involved significantly. 

There still isn't a lot of margin there, but it's probably possible to do at that price point with sensible choices on components.  When you are asking £700 and there is really expensive third party made stuff like Bare Knuckle and Hipshot that has to be subtracted from that, it's just not possible - unless it's a hobby sideline where you are just making a bit of extra pocket money to supplement your job or pension.

digitalscream

@FelineGuitars - all of that is (of course) very true, and to my knowledge he's currently making far more money as a plumber, and more consistently.

The point was, though, that the Series 2 guitars weren't about profit, they were about getting people through the door. Most S2 owners ended up buying more expensive guitars from him (which was where the profit lay), and thus they paid for themselves.

Danielsguitars

FelineGuitars said:

Lets say that Jaden was happy to earn just over UK minimum wage from his endeavour making just these guitars, and that he is working from a family home with no overheads on that business (unlikely but lets pretend)

So maybe a 40 hour week  x 4 weeks in a monthly cycle =£1600

Let's say that outside of all his materials he is left with £300 per guitar to cover those wages 

So he has to make, but also SELL nearly 6 guitars a month  of a nice but fairly niche brand/style

Not all that easy and left with very little margin for stuff to go wrong and cover upkeep on his machinery 

I have often said it of small low price guitar start-ups  - one of the big stumbling blocks is not building  in enough of a cushion for when stuff goes wrong.

I am sure that the difficulty of having to refund a customer as Ian Elson had to is so much harder in this situation where there is not enough cashflow spare to do that quickly and easily

However if you are going to be choosing to sell for a higher price you need for your stuff to be absolutely the best it can be and present and promote with style and care via your website and social media etc.

Couldn't agree more Jon, I don't even see how it's possible to consistently churn that amount of great guitars without getting burned out, skint, dissatisfied, knackered and fed up in general, I couldn't do it and wouldn't want to even with s CNC.

carlos

digitalscream said:

@FelineGuitars - all of that is (of course) very true, and to my knowledge he's currently making far more money as a plumber, and more consistently.

The point was, though, that the Series 2 guitars weren't about profit, they were about getting people through the door. Most S2 owners ended up buying more expensive guitars from him (which was where the profit lay), and thus they paid for themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

skunkwerx

carlos said:

digitalscream said:

@FelineGuitars - all of that is (of course) very true, and to my knowledge he's currently making far more money as a plumber, and more consistently.

The point was, though, that the Series 2 guitars weren't about profit, they were about getting people through the door. Most S2 owners ended up buying more expensive guitars from him (which was where the profit lay), and thus they paid for themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

I first learnt this was a thing when I started in retail, and was surprised to find out supermarkets were one of our biggest rivals (we sold dvds and cd’s). 

They could lose on all those goods because chances are, whilst you were there you’d also buy some weekly shopping or bits that they’d make their profits on. 

carlos

These very cheap custom guitar builders I always think naively as loss leaders. Get guitars out there for people to talk about and get word-of-mouth. But when someone keeps the ridiculous low price after 5 years then something else is going on.

digitalscream

carlos said:

digitalscream said:

@FelineGuitars - all of that is (of course) very true, and to my knowledge he's currently making far more money as a plumber, and more consistently.

The point was, though, that the Series 2 guitars weren't about profit, they were about getting people through the door. Most S2 owners ended up buying more expensive guitars from him (which was where the profit lay), and thus they paid for themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

Except...they weren't loss-leaders, because he still made money on them.

brownovich

Thing is though many of the defects here having little or nothing to do with the margins or cost on this guitar. It’s about a rogue builder who has no business charging people for guitars. As said in the OP, the choice of bridge was never gonna work with this design. Doesn’t matter if he’s charging £800 or £8,000. The choice of nut was always wrong for this type of guitar, that’s not something that would make any noticeable difference to cost. Using the wrong type of screws shows zero shits were given. The extra screw in the neck pocket shows bad faith, as he’s consciously made the decision to bodge it. What’s worse is he’s then dishonestly tried to pass it off to another customer as new, and lied about the origins of the guitar.

This isn’t really about not charging enough for a custom instrument, it’s about someone who isn’t competent to consistently build guitars and has a history of misrepresentation and dishonesty that’s ended up in court.

He needs to STOP until he’s able to deliver a product that is fit for sale EVERY time.